According to IST you need a strength base before training for hypertrophy. According to Reddit that is false.
Who is correct?
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It's All Fucked Shirt $22.14 |
According to IST you need a strength base before training for hypertrophy. According to Reddit that is false.
Who is correct?
It's All Fucked Shirt $22.14 |
It's All Fucked Shirt $22.14 |
Chicken or egg? Just do both or alternate
I've been liftin for 10 years and I have no idea what hypertrophy means
You don't need a strength base or ever do less than 10 reps. But it is a good
idea to learn how to squat, deadlift, press, pullup, row, etc, rather than only ever doing machine exercises.
Muscle growth.
If you train for muscle growth, you'll also get stronger. There isn't a meaningful difference in strength between training with 5 or 10 reps over longer periods of time.
>If you train for muscle growth, you'll also get stronger.
I could just as easily say the opposite. If you get strong (and still stay lean), there's no way you won't look good.
>There isn't a meaningful difference in strength between training with 5 or 10 reps over longer periods of time.
It's not just about the rep range though. It's also about what weights you're doing those reps with. One guy benches 1 plate for 10 reps and another guy benches 2 plates for the same amount...who is gonna have the bigger chest?
Do you guys all train for hypertrophy? Why? Isn't both training for stength or endurance preferable to training for looks?
>Isn't both training for stength or endurance preferable to training for looks?
In what world? Absolutely not. The functional strength and endurance needed in real life situations is achieved in 3-6 months of lifting just as a side product doing whatever.
You don't need to do SS+GOMAD to mog normies and carry heavy grocery bags without a cart, or pick up furniture. The bar for functional strength is so incredibly low. You will achieve it tenfold just by training for hypertrophy. It's all about looks. This is not even a question. Of course train for hypertrophy and looks. The Why shouldn't even exist. I don't live in medieval times.
>Isn't both training for stength or endurance preferable to training for looks?
You will still gain strength and especially endurance on hypertrophy training. It's never either-or unless you do extremely specialized sports routines.
Kai is a heavy roider, everything works for him. Yates lifted heavy compounds with accessories on a much smaller stack and looked way better
Yates didn't squat yet he still had massive legs. According to IST you can't make lower body gains without squatting.
Been saying this for years but IST censuses have routinely shown that 80% of the board can't do 1/2/3/4 for a self reported 1rm. Good advice/actual lifting knowledge is the last thing I expect to see on here.
How would y'all structure a leg day?
>using roiders as standards
he could run for 20 minutes a day and make better leg gains than me or you ever could with any exercise
but I want strength endurance and looks
No fricking idea what youre even talking about. I just go to the gym 6 times a week, pick heavy things up and put them down. Judging by how much my lifts went up the fact that i now have stretch marks all over my body after doing this routine for 7 months its safe to say that what i am doing is working for me
Your first routine should be a strength style routine. This is simply because he he it's fun to pick heavy thing up, along with the importance of form, learning general gym knowledge, and building a DOM tolerance to the lethal hell 12-15 leg press will give you.
After roughly 3-6 months of strength, hypertrophy can just completely take over.
The average moron just does 1-6 or 6-20 sets anyways and doesn't minmax their routine though.
With that being said 1-8 is for strength, and 8-15 is for hypertrophy. In theory that means 8 is optimal for both. If you do 7,11,or 13 reps, kys.
>The average moron just does 1-6 or 6-20 sets anyways and doesn't minmax their routine though.
What do you mean by this?
>With that being said 1-8 is for strength, and 8-15 is for hypertrophy. In theory that means 8 is optimal for both.
10 is, see image.
>If you do 7,11,or 13 reps, kys.
9 reps tho
Reps*
Always sworn I've read 8, musta been wrong,
9 is fine
>Always sworn I've read 8, musta been wrong,
Probably not wrong. Different sources claim different optimal reps. I like the reasoning of the source behind that graph and the simplicity of telling people to either do 5, 10, or 15 reps depending on the lift.
Here's the source btw: http://www.strongur.io/using-exertion-load-to-predict-metabolic-stress/
or just be like me and train both at the same time
They have it backwards, you need a hypertrophy base so you can get stronger without looking like shit
I saw an absurd increase in all of my measurements as well as responding far better to bulks by doing more hypertrophy training
I still do one strength ego exercise each session, but everything else is mostly isolated and going to failure as much as I can or near to it
The difference is night and day.
Fitness is over complicated, if you want to look good you just go as hard as you can on good exercise selection.
Same here. But I also do lighter sets to failure of the compounds once a week and noticed the heavier sets became way easier, also fixed my form on squats and deadlifts.
Any accessory lifts I do 3x10 and then a set till failure. Wish I had been doing this a lot earlier.
Within the first few months, you're not building muscle but helping your nervous system adapt to a workload it never experienced. For that reason alone, strength routines are better early on.
At the same time, you need to learn certain movement patterns (squats, diddies, presses) you should know but dont due to sitting on your ass since forever, and for that reason, strength routines with low reps and few exercises are better.
>According to IST you need a strength base before training for hypertrophy.
I have never read this anywhere on IST
You haven't been here long enough. People used to act like you would make zero gains as a natty if you didn't train for strength
If you want to get big you need to get stronger first. No one ever got big benching 100lbs for 12 reps.
You have to be strong enough to induce hypertrophy. But you can get there without being a powerlifter. You just start with replicable sets for practice like 3 sets of 10 and shit and save the hardcore ramp up to one set to failure and dropset till you want to die workouts for when you're a big boy.
>start meso at weight you can do for 8-10 reps on the first set
>add weight each week, the reps will fall off faster than you can progress in strength
>once you're hitting 3-5 reps per set reset the weight to a new, higher 8-10RM and begin again.
>take regular deloads to manage fatigue
Wa la
>do this meso cycle
>reset weight to a new, higher 10 RM
>can't get 10 reps
what then?
I've been doing 10 RM on my first set on squats, but going to failure decreases performance on subsequent sets. I end up doing 7 reps on my second set, and 5 reps on my third. But when I don't go to (or very close to) failure, it's hard to judge how many reps in reserve I would've had (thus how hard I've been pushing myself). This is less of an issue with lower reps, but I'd like to train ~10 reps (for size gains).
If you can't get 10 reps on the first set go a bit lighter or accept a shorter meso. The point is to keep progressing weight so long as you hit the minimum total reps. So on 3x6-8, if you hit 18, go up the next time. Doesn't matter if it was 6/6/6 or 8/5/5 or anything in between. And diminishing reps are fine. Imo its a sign you're pushing yourself properly, though if your drops are really extreme then learn to keep gas in the tank on your opener. What I like to do is go RPE 8 on my first set (sometimes 3 sometimes 4 total depending on how I feel going into the meso and how many different exercises I wanna do) then end my last set on RPE 9, or where I feel the next one is 50/50. Sometimes I overshoot and take it to failure but its always on the very last set of my big daily compound so its no big deal. The rest of my work after that is in the 8-12 range so its weight thats heavy enough to drill technique and promote hypertrophy but a weight that I can always hit every single rep with perfect form.
>If you can't get 10 reps on the first set go a bit lighter or accept a shorter meso.
Yeah, but what if after the meso cycle your new 10 RM is equal (or even lower) than your previous 10 RM? How does this method deal with stalls or regressions? Just lowering the weight or doing a shorter meso cycle doesn't achieve anything.
>And diminishing reps are fine. Imo its a sign you're pushing yourself properly, though if your drops are really extreme then learn to keep gas in the tank on your opener.
Would you consider 10, 7, 5 to be too large of a drop?
If your new 10rm is equal to or lower than the previous one, evaluate your recovery (food, sleep, and regular deloads). If its been on point, go from your new lower 10RM and see if the extra week or two helps you reach a higher peak weight than last time. If it doesn't and you hit a rut, swap the lift for a variant when you reset and start a new progression. When you stall on that, come back around to the first lift, fresh and ready to set new PRs.
Alternatively use your 10RM number and hop to a different program for a while then cycle back. I like to do this as a default training method when I'm inbetween other programs since its a good mix of volume and intensity (you can set the rep targets however you want for your goals btw) and it gives you the RM numbers to transition to any other % based routine.
Seems kinda bad to handle stalls/regression by switching exercises instead of changing number of weekly sets.
Its an excellent long term progression strategy because the strength you gain on similar lifts will transfer across to the one you want to target and it'll still build muscle if hypertrophy is your goal. And again, this is a baseline year round approach. If you're interested in peaking your 10RMs on the big 4 you could try adding more sets of the lift on different days as assistance, adding more assistance exercises to target weak points in the lift (floor press for bench lockout for example), just running a proper LP, or running a program specifically designed to bring that lift up (Smolov Jr for bench as an example).
>excellent long term progression strategy
I don't think so. Switching exercises won't help if weekly volume is too low or too high.
>assistance exercises to target weak points in the lift
Don't really exist. Sticking points are already trained by the lift itself. Only thing I can think of where targeting weak points can help is if you do a lot of assistance work on the prime mover of an exercise but nothing for the other muscles. E.g. tons of chest flies and no triceps exercises may give lockout trouble for bench.
Thanks for your time though.
>So on 3x6-8, if you hit 18, go up the next time. Doesn't matter if it was 6/6/6 or 8/5/5 or anything in between.
Damn. I've never thought of it as total reps. That's a hell of a lot easier way of thinking.
Giving credit where its due, the idea comes from the guy behind gzcl. Its called VDIP and its designed for powerlifting, so the top sets are usually significantly lower total reps- down to 10 across as many as 5 sets. The methodology is super solid though and works for whatever rep scheme you throw at it.
>> down to 10 across as many as 5 sets.
So a goal of 50 reps or 5 sets to get 10 total reps?
No, 5 sets to hit 10 reps, so like heavy doubles
Always do the opposite of what israelites say.
>lift heavy weights lots of times
>gain lots of muscle and strength
It's literally that easy. That is simply all there is to it. Science gays are fricking moronic.
This guy uses baby weights but looks big.
Is he being executed?
Just do 4-6 reps per set and quit worrying about this autistic shit. You'll get stronger and bigger.
>there is no need for a bodybuilder to start with a strength program
lmao, then you ain't gonna be a bodybuilder
Strength training also includes a larger gain in neural strength which in the long run means you can lift heavier and expose your muscle fibers to greater tension. More tension means more growth.
A moron lifting 135x8 will have a smaller chest than a guy who can lift 185x8 because he did his heavy sets of 5 and progressed way faster.
>he did his heavy sets of 5 and progressed way faster
>progressed way faster
kek no. doing sets of 10 gives pretty much the same progression rate. there's no meaningful difference if you keep frequency and weekly sets the same. some people would even progress faster with sets of 10 due to higher hypertrophy stimulus from extra metabolic stress and double the amount of total reps.
>doing sets of 10 gives pretty much the same progression rate
Absolutely not
sure it does if you track progression rate as calculated 1 RM.
Still no
that's a bro myth.
Then why don't powerlifters just do sets of ten to get stronger? Afterall it works just as well according to you and they could gain some extra muscle on top of their strength.
meant for
they should and some of them do. the closer they get to a meet, the lower their reps should be and the higher the weights. but mesocycles with sets of 10 should be included in their overall macrocycles.
Powerlifting is a specialized sport with a certain look that is wanted. They want to look fat, not muscular. Partly it's their idea of aesthetics, partly being fat gives you an advantage in lifts.
>Powerlifting is a specialized sport with a certain look that is wanted
Powerlifting is a sport so looks do not matter only performance. They do not want to look fat. Being muscular is prefered to being fat but if they have to gain fat to stay in a weight class they will. Being muscular always helps more than being fat. Being fat does not give an advantage but being sucked down gives a disadvantage.
Yes, so we can agree that if you have a certain goal in mind like getting stronger or getting bigger you should specialize, right? Doing sets of 10 does not make you strong. It makes you stronger but gains are being left on the table compared to proper strength training program. Just like size gains are being left on the table of you are doing a powerlifting or strength program. Powerlifters doing hypertrophy training does not mean they are training for hypertrophy. They stil lift for strength on the big 3.
>They do not want to look fat.
They do, bearmode etc.
Two powerlifters compete against each other. Both are the same height and weigh 205 but one of them is 26 percent bodyfat and the other is 16 percent bodyfat. Now who do you think is stronger?
Whichever one has better proportions
>we can agree that if you have a certain goal in mind like getting stronger or getting bigger you should specialize, right?
sure
>Doing sets of 10 does not make you strong.
wrong
>It makes you stronger but gains are being left on the table compared to proper strength training program
It depends on the individual. A good amount of people gain better size and strength with higher reps, just like a good amount of people gain better size and strength with lower reps. Inter-individual variability is largely overlooked in the fitness world, but it matters a lot.
Also I'm not saying that, on average, people gain more strength only using sets of 10 compared to only using sets of 5. I said that the difference is (very) small. But if your main goal is gaining strength (like powerlifters), doing both sets of 5 and sets of 10 is better than only doing sets of 5. And if your goal is gaining size, doing both sets of 10 and sets of 5 is better than just doing sets of 10.
>But if your main goal is gaining strength (like powerlifters), doing both sets of 5 and sets of 10 is better than only doing sets of 5. And if your goal is gaining size, doing both sets of 10 and sets of 5 is better than just doing sets of 10.
I agree with that
Almost like bodybuilding and powerlifting and weightlifting are all different things
I'll be honest and say that DYELs who want to immediately start bodybuilding aren't worth giving advice to. Every noob in my experience who starts immediately on hypertrophy will stop working out within 6 months. It's as aggravating as women saying they don't want to "get big". You fricking little homosexual, you get red in the face and sweat lifting 50lbs, why are you pretending like you're going to actually look good benching 60lbs and doing bicep curls? Oh but you're real smart, you use reddit. You got a PPL split, real nice. HAVE FUN BEING DYEL FOREVER
>Muh you can build strength doing hypertrophy
Dude we're talking about guys who start with 11 inch biceps weighing 120lbs soaking wet, do your 5x5s for the first year and shut the frick up
You should just pick heavy stuff up and set it back down again and repeat until you can't.
Think of being able to do 3x20 as a badge of honor and being able to add on another 2.5lbs or 5lbs plates to the lift rather than a chore to go through as a bodybuilder. Cruel work that powershitters will never tolerate.
You should do it because you look like a gay if you go to the gym and use nothing but machines
but if you go to reddit for advice you probably already are a gay so what does it matter to you
There are no popular full-body hypertrophy routines for beginner. Only splits, and I don't lift hard enough yet to recover for a whole week.
Maybe it's because it's easier to progress in 2.5kg increments (smallest plates I can use are 1.25) at lower reps.
I just got back to gym after multiple years of doing frick all and the only program I liked is Greyskull LP, which is 5+ reps for main lifts and ~10-12 for accessories.
I can take the same program and just up the reps/lower the weight, but would I progress just as well?
>Only splits, and I don't lift hard enough yet to recover for a whole week.
You can split at any frequency you want. Check this out.
UxLxUxx
LxUxLxx
That's 1.5X per week.
according to reddit there's 187 genders and w*man have rights.
please no racism on IST
I'll stop being a racist sexist nazi bad person on IST when you stupid Black person loving homosexuals stop israeliteing up the board with stupid fricking women brained shit
women deserve equal rights (and lefts)
So compound lifts are better suited for strength, am I getting this right? Isolation would be better for hypertrophy?
Isolations are used for hypertrophy because they allow you to hit muscles which are left behind by compounds. Bodybuilders seek a more complete physique than powerlifters.
Also, once you are strong enough, you can’t actually do compounds often enough to grow, so you need something to do in the meantime while you’re waiting for your body to recover.
Hypertrophy training makes you stronger in a higher rep range and has more isolations, whereas strength training makes you stronger in a lower rep range. There is some carryover between the two.
The reason why high reps is good for hypertrophy is because low reps are more taxing, and total volume is a large driver of growth, so high reps allow you to do more sets per week, and therefore, grow more.
Reddit.
Literally all sports do hypertrophy as GPP before specialized strength exercises. A "strength base" doesn't exist.
You need a strength base or you will hit a wall, but the strength base you need is much lower than 1/2/3/4.
Press greater than 100 lbs
Bench greater than 150 lbs
Squat greater than 200 lbs
Deadlift greater than 200 lbs
10 clean pull ups
Not winded after 10 minutes of moderate cardio
If you can do the above, you’re strong enough to start whatever path you want.
This is a high iq post. If you played sports in high school and did some basic lifting not really. But if you’ve never done anything and can’t bench 1 pl8 then sure
reddit. I tried the fricking sticky and I, literally speaking, didn't get a single pound of muscle in my first 5 months. Did get my lifts to one plate though.2