Could lifting (correctly) have saved him?

Could lifting (correctly) have saved him?

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  1. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    No. The only thing that could have saved him would be not being a reddit cucklord that let Arnold live rent free in his mind leading to his descent into homosexuality and drug addiction

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      This, he died a roidtroony fueled by hatred and envy

  2. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    This guy looks really good. Is it the proportions?

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Yeah. Good genetics, blessed insertions. He was a manlet too and that helped.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Thickness, real muscle. No balonie soft rubbery muscle shit.

  3. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Not doing meth might have helped

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      nothing is wrong with meth if you dont take so much you get into psychosis from sleep deprivation, it can help you lose weight and give you energy, and is even neuroprotective at low doses, not my thing at all but to say theres something inherently wrong with it is misinformed

  4. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    How come no one ever talks about his brother? Him and his brother were comparably the same size. If his brother followed his training methods, then maybe there was some truth to it. But if his brother did a different routine, then you could say it's genetics and training had nothing to do with it

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Neither of them built their physiques on mike’s training methods. This homie built all his tissue on a standard routine for the time and then maintained the mass he had already built using his moronic protocol.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Neither of them followed his methods. Mentzer didn't start sucking Arthur Jones's dick until late in his career when it was already on the decline and his body was what it was. After the 80 Olympia he stopped altogether.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        I don't know how everyone misses that every single high intensity practioner built their mass using a completely different method.

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Dorian

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Never used high intensity to get his mass

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Are you fricking serious Black person? Watch blood & guts.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Blood and Guts? The one where he trains multiple body parts pyramiding up in weight and taking the last sets to failure resulting in way more volume than menser ever recommended? Blood and Guts the program he didn't Implement until he was already in Olympian and had built all of his Mass using high volume methods?

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                "Never used high intensity to get his mass"
                Intensity & volume are not the same thing. Volume is amount of work. Reps x sets. Intensity is how hard you fire your CNS. You can't built muscle without high intensity. You can do a shit-ton of volume with no intensity and make 0 gains. You can do a shit-ton of intensity with relatively little volume and make big gains. That's what mentzer's heavy duty was all about.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Can you show me where you put the goal posts?

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Being able to lift more weight than you did last time, or the same weight for more reps. You have to get better every workout or you're wasting your time. You have to maintain your progressive overload or else your intensity inevitably drops off and it won't be enough to make gains anymore. Mike talked about this shit for hours, I don't know why you guys are so quick to write it off & want to murder yourselves with junk volume instead. Mike literally responds to the haters/challengers of his day, in his videos. With all due respect, none of you gays have competed in the olympia, and you probably never will. Mike studied exercise science professionally.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                No one is questioning the intensity. People take issue with one set, failing between 6-8 reps, and then not doing it again in the same body part for two weeks. And stupid claims like you can't perform high intensity at increased volumes. Mentzer had some good foundational ideas. His problem was he went batshit crazy with the claims and never practiced them himself. That's why he was written off then and now.
                >Mike studied exercise science professionally.
                No he didn't. He was a college drop out, and later a bodybuilding dropout with a thesaurus, and if you pay attention half the time he didn't even use that correctly

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Professive overload =/= to Heavy Duty.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                What made it over for him was stopping lifting, meth, and later chain smoking.

                >pyramiding up in weight
                That's what you do with warm ups especially when you need to do heavy weight. BTW all the stimulus happens in the heaviest set which is where the true progressive tension overload can occur. But if you're going to count warmups, are you going to count the walk to the gym and the walk home as two sets of calf training now? Treating warm up sets as part of training volume is a cope. Warm ups are not causing any tension overload and hence they are not part of training volume.
                >had built all of his Mass using high volume methods?
                He wasn't using high volume methods. His volume was still quite low. Even the golden era guys didn't really do high volume. According Zane most people were doing at most 3-5 sets per exercise with the same method of using progessively heavier warmup sets before they did the last set which was the heaviest.

                At best, the Golden era "high volume" guys were doing at most moderate volume in the method of traditional strength training with some warmup sets. Meanwhile Weider magazines were pushing this fantasy that they were training 2 hours twice a day when this was mostly likely false in some cases or left out how everyone would socialize during a good portion of that time or work on something like their posing routines. It probably didn't help as Weider was associated with Vince Gironda (the junk volume king) and published "Mr. America arm routines" that looked suspiciously like Vince's arm junk volume routine. Maybe you could put them all at realistically at most at 8-12 sets per week as opposed to Mike's 6-8 per week on his routine at the time.

                And to add to this: Didn't Reg Park, Reeves, Arnold, Serge Nubret, Sergio Oliva, Franco not all start out with some olympic lifting/powerlifting background? Back in Reeves' Era I think you even had to overhead press a certain weight to be able to compete.

                >I think you even had to overhead press a certain weight
                No. Vince Gironda was allowed to compete and if this was true he wouldn't have been able to meet any higher standards as he was always a small guy and would never have.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                So what you're saying is Mentzer didn't use Heavy Duty, and Dorian didn't use Blood and Guts to get huge, and both of them used higher volume, higher frequency training to put on their mass? Got it, thanks.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                See

                [...]
                [...]
                I took the time to actually look at Yates’ training journal (1985-1990, in his own handwriting). The tldr is that you’re fricking wrong. Most of his lifts are two warmup sets, one top set, then maybe rest pause or drop sets. He very clearly gets stronger over time. This means that this style of training is perfectly valid for BUILDING muscle, not just maintaining, at his level. I would argue that the very last pound of muscle is the hardest to get, therefore the very last routine used was the “best”, which means that “building a base” on a program tells you very little.
                Case in point: You are either moronic or lying. I suspect both.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                > Mentzer didn't use Heavy Duty
                He was using Heavy Duty at the time and training under Heavy Duty. Heavy Duty is not a program. It's a set of principals regarding what he believed to be proper workout practices derived from the HIT system as proposed by Arthur Jones and others that allow for a variety of different routines and individual variance.

                What you see as the "Ideal routine" as he called it was from Heavy Duty II in 1996. In additional some of the principals and ideas that made it into the John Little book were not there even in 1996. For example the 4/4 cadence did not exist until the last few months of Mike's life. Most of his trainees and former trainees were using a 1/3 to 2/4 cadence with a faster concentric but still with a slow eccentric. His former Trainee, John Heart, comments on this:

                Even though he added the general recommendation of 4-7 days between workouts in 1996, he still had some clients training once every 48 hours or once every 72 hours with each muscle group sometimes being trained as much as twice per week depending on their ability to recover and overcompensate (get stronger) after a workout. He also programmed AB routines (the routine he used personally was his "most productive routine"), PPL routines (Heavy Duty I), and full body routines (his beginner routine is one such program) in line with the principals of Heavy Duty at the time. Pic related for example is the PPL routine from Heavy Duty (1991). It's a 3 day per week program with each muscle group trained to failure once per week with 2-4 sets per muscle group. Each set is done with 6-8 reps.

                Just to make a note, Mike's Heavy Duty principals are quite a good set of principals when you account for the allowed individual variability and avoid the parts where Mike went off the rails later in life.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Why didn't it save him?

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                It was unrelated to Heavy. It had more to do with Mike's personality flaws.

                Mike got addicted to meth in the late 70's because he was addicted to productivity and needed more energy to keep him going as he was trying to both compete, write articles for muscle magazines, and start his own magazine.

                Mike was obsessed with beating his competitors as compared to someone like Frank Zane who just trained to be in the best shape he could get into. He obsessed with getting as lean as Robbie Robinson after losing to him in his first Mr. Universe. Mike then was obsessed with Frank Zane after losing to him in Mr. Olympia though getting 2nd place overall. Mike then was obsessed with beating Arnold and everyone else in 1980. Losing to Arnold was what caused him to quit as the judges gave Arnold a title because they were his friends. That being said, Mike wasn't the only guy to stop competing after that year though they all handled it better than him. Some of them who really should've been placed higher than Arnold like Danny Padilla or Frank Zane ended up competing again. Though they probably weren't abusing meth like Mike had been and their behavior wasn't influence by amphetamine-induced psychosis.

                Mike personally stopped lifting some time in the 80's after losing the Mr. Olympia though his brother Ray kept on lifting.

                Mike was also a chain smoker.

                His brother Ray got diagnosed with Kidney disease and Mike took the task of taking care of him. When Mike went in to volunteer to give him a kidney transplant he found out he had a heart defect that precluded him from donating.

                Mike then died of heart failure because he decided to pull an all-nighter to work on his book and the script for the video with Marcus Reinhart in spite of knowing he had a bad heart and the insistence of his brother that he should take it easy. As said before, he was addicted to being productive and would neglect his health for the sake of productivity.

                Meth is one hell of a drug.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >That's what you do with warm ups especially when you need to do heavy weight. BTW all the stimulus happens in the heaviest set which is where the true progressive tension overload can occur.

                Agree. I've never seen 'Dorian did high volume' people analyze specifically how much weight he uses in the warm-up sets for how many reps and whether that should qualify as a work set, which indicates to me that they're not interested in the truth. I'll do it right now.
                On chest day in Blood & Guys, he incline benches 1 plate 12 times, 2 plates 8 times, 3 plates 6 times, & 4 plates 6 times. 1, 2 & 3 plates - they're warmups. If you think the 3 plate set, doing 78% of your 6 rep max, for 6 reps, is a work set... Actually maybe that's what the Dorian detractors actually believe, but I think that's silly really. That's gotta be like 6 reps in the tank easy.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Are you suggesting he was small in blood and guts? Don't be a dumbass. Swing how he trains when he's already huge doesn't tell you shit, you need to see what methods he was using as a 150lbs teenager, that's what got him big.

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              Blood and Guts? The one where he trains multiple body parts pyramiding up in weight and taking the last sets to failure resulting in way more volume than menser ever recommended? Blood and Guts the program he didn't Implement until he was already in Olympian and had built all of his Mass using high volume methods?

              Are you suggesting he was small in blood and guts? Don't be a dumbass. Swing how he trains when he's already huge doesn't tell you shit, you need to see what methods he was using as a 150lbs teenager, that's what got him big.

              I took the time to actually look at Yates’ training journal (1985-1990, in his own handwriting). The tldr is that you’re fricking wrong. Most of his lifts are two warmup sets, one top set, then maybe rest pause or drop sets. He very clearly gets stronger over time. This means that this style of training is perfectly valid for BUILDING muscle, not just maintaining, at his level. I would argue that the very last pound of muscle is the hardest to get, therefore the very last routine used was the “best”, which means that “building a base” on a program tells you very little.
              Case in point: You are either moronic or lying. I suspect both.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Oh the one page of it posted online where it lists multiple sets and exercises per body part? Yes I've seen it too. Thank you for agreeing with me that he didn't use Blood and Guts to build his physique

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                One page? I found the entire pdf. It was on scribd, which is a pain in the ass to use, but I looked through enough of it. He was using Blood and Guts (or something close to it) well before his first Olympia win.
                >thank you for agreeing
                Don’t assume I’m as lazy as you.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Guys guys, this is about Mentzer. But since you both want to talk about Dorian, do you think if Dorian hadn't distanced himself from Mentzer that it would have saved Mentzer?

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >That's what you do with warm ups especially when you need to do heavy weight. BTW all the stimulus happens in the heaviest set which is where the true progressive tension overload can occur.

                Agree. I've never seen 'Dorian did high volume' people analyze specifically how much weight he uses in the warm-up sets for how many reps and whether that should qualify as a work set, which indicates to me that they're not interested in the truth. I'll do it right now.
                On chest day in Blood & Guys, he incline benches 1 plate 12 times, 2 plates 8 times, 3 plates 6 times, & 4 plates 6 times. 1, 2 & 3 plates - they're warmups. If you think the 3 plate set, doing 78% of your 6 rep max, for 6 reps, is a work set... Actually maybe that's what the Dorian detractors actually believe, but I think that's silly really. That's gotta be like 6 reps in the tank easy.

                The second someone pulls out some OQE, all of a sudden the detractors are quiet lol.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Volumecel cope

        • 4 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          What exactly is he coping with?

          • 4 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Mentzer from 72 used HIT. He liked doing 1-2 sets and maybe did giant sets back to back on exercises like dips/pushdowns and leg ex. leg press. Besides this, he is as low volume as it comes. Especially in the golden era.

            Dorian initiated the trend of training muscles once a week. He always was low volume, but went even lower from 91-92 onwards. Haney even copied a little of his success as he decreased his volume over his career.

            Even Nick Walker and Urs Kalecinski are doing some weird HIT style training where they only do 1-2 sets per exercise, but they DID in fact build their physique with volume. Then again, do the last few pounds of quality muscle not validize the training? They are the hardest to get.

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              And to add to this: Didn't Reg Park, Reeves, Arnold, Serge Nubret, Sergio Oliva, Franco not all start out with some olympic lifting/powerlifting background? Back in Reeves' Era I think you even had to overhead press a certain weight to be able to compete.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Sergio Oliva yes. Franco did both. The rest were bodybuilders who may have competed in powerlifting here and there but trained bodybuilding

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Arnold did 1rm's in Bench to maintain his strength and even advocated it. Serge did so as well.

                And they did build their base on powerlifting. Undeniably, all of them. Arnold started very young even.

                So all of these guys started using high intensity after they put all in all of their mass? So they're basically only maintaining? Got it.

                Smug homosexual.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >Arnold did 1rm's in Bench to maintain his strength
                Occasionally doing 1rm means you started out as a powerlifter. K.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                He did start out as a powerlifter. I don't understand how you can't comprehend this?

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Incorporating powerlifting movements into your training is not the same as powerlifting, anon. NTA but he's right, Arnie was always a bodybuilder

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I'm pretty sure Arnold was a powerlifter in his youth.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I don't want to get in the middle of this fight but can anyone point to a sauce? Everything Arnold has said about his training was bodybuilding focused. I know he did a couple of power lifting comps but he said that that was to prove people wrong who said bodybuilders were weak

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                People get confused because Arnold's first gym was a weight lifting club. So he learned and incorporated their movements into what he was doing. But if you read anything he wrote or listen to him talk about it, he was never doing powerlifting or oly lifting. He incorporated strength movements, sure, but everything he did was to bodybuild. So to say he was a powerlifter or weightlifter starting out is disingenuous

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                his teens

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                He did start out as a powerlifter. I don't understand how you can't comprehend this?

                Incorporating powerlifting movements into your training is not the same as powerlifting, anon. NTA but he's right, Arnie was always a bodybuilder

                I'm pretty sure Arnold was a powerlifter in his youth.

                I don't want to get in the middle of this fight but can anyone point to a sauce? Everything Arnold has said about his training was bodybuilding focused. I know he did a couple of power lifting comps but he said that that was to prove people wrong who said bodybuilders were weak

                >arnold built his base with powerlifting and oly lifting, which means everything he did later was just maintaining do not @ me

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                @(you) he incorporated strength into his bodybuilding training and competed in a few competitions to prove he was strong too. He never focused on powerlifting or weightlifting, just looped those movements in with the goal of building muscle.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >Could you please show me where you put the goalposts.
                Or whatever it was that other moron said.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Hey anon, I do squats in my routine, along with leg extensions, stiff Legged Deadlifts, leg Curls, calf raises, and a host of other exercises for my upper body. But since powerlifters use squats, that must mean I'm a powerlifter, right?

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I'm sure you will enter a powerlifting competition while doing bodybuilding type squats bro.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Idk anon. A lot of powerlifters do accessories. I guess the deciding factor is whether or not you competed in a powerlifting meet…
                like Arnold did.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >Like Arnold did
                After bodybuilding for years and deciding he was going to show up all the people who said bodybuilders were weak. Christ he spells it out in his book.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                I’m having trouble finding when he first competed, but his first bodybuilding win was Jr Mr Europe in 1965.
                Per the above screencap, in 1964 he won an Olympic weightlifting contest.
                So it sounds to me like he built his base on weightlifting and just maintained it all throughout his career.
                Sorry, dude. Sucks to be wrong, I know.
                Note: I’m only kidding here and I don’t care about his early competitions. I think the “X built his base doing Y” argument is nonsense.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >never focused on those movements.
                Yeah, I’m calling bs on this. You have to do a LOT of practice with Oly lifting to get good enough to win a competition. There’s no way a bodybuilder can just walk into an Olympic weightlifting competition (or powerlifting) and win it without extensive practice, beating out sport-specific athletes, many of whom I’m sure were also steroid users.

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                arnold trained like a powerlifter and even competed in weightlifting and powerlifting
                he benched close to 500lbs at 20 years old

                if you're not getting stronger you're not getting bigger

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                >arnold trained like a powerlifter
                Arnold trained like a bodybuilder and competed in a few powerlifting comps to prove bodybuilders were strong

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                You don't get a 500lbs bench training like a bodybuilder anon...

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                You mean progressive overloading on movements and increasing weight and reps each session? Like that?

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                Here you go

              • 4 weeks ago
                Anonymous

                God bless

            • 4 weeks ago
              Anonymous

              So all of these guys started using high intensity after they put all in all of their mass? So they're basically only maintaining? Got it.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Would you consider 1972 “late” in his career or no?

  5. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    he's a literal roidhomosexual there's no saving him

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Well yeah he's dead

  6. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    mike was 90% right about everything, he was just off about recovery timings and fats for a natural.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      Do you think it would have saved him to be right about recovery?

  7. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    This is the guy that says you're only supposed to move once a year right?
    What a moron.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      No, less than thst. You can start out once a year but that will quickly eat into your recovery. As you progress you'll eventually get to the point where you train once a decade because you're pushing yourself so intensely

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      No, less than thst. You can start out once a year but that will quickly eat into your recovery. As you progress you'll eventually get to the point where you train once a decade because you're pushing yourself so intensely

      You guys are dumb as frick. jesus.

      • 4 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        Black person it's a joke

  8. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    No. Lifting incorrectly is only a symptom. The only things that could have saved him is never having been exposed to Ayn Rand and Arthur Jones

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      I feel like after swallowing Jones's BS that Mentzer became so convinced he was right about everything that he couldn't understand failure or learning from it anymore. And he couldn't understand how everyone else was succeeding when they weren't doing what he was. It made him obsessive and sent him down the spiral that ruined him.

    • 4 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >ayn rand
      shouldve raid le spooks man

  9. 4 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Wasn't he 5'6? Nothing could save him

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