most people do not need to strengthen their erectors, they need to stretch them, what they need to do for their back pain is train their core. Most people have an anterior pelvic tilt, which means they are tight in their back and weak in their core.
Training the back can help as a tight muscle is also a weak muscle as it has degraded over time from being chronically contracted, but to fix back pain, the usual prescription is core work.
weak glutes also contribute to APT, and back extensions train those very well. either way, having stronger erectors is your best defense against back pain, so a movement that allows you to train your erectors with fairly low amounts of axial loading is a great option. As for abs, I expect everyone to have some sort of ab work in their program anyway because it's very easy to fit in. Personally ab wheel is my go-to for building isometric strength (more specific to how your abs function during compound movements), but weighted situps and leg raises are also very good for building general muscle and strength in the abs.
extensions can place a lot of force on the lumbar spine, which can be dangerous for anyone with a disc disorder or a pars defect, or if someone has spondye-boisthesis, spondylosis, or scoliosis. Generally speaking, physical therapists don't prescribe extensions for any type of back pain because the risk and reward ratio is so bad. If you want to train your glutes, RDLs or SLRDLs are the far superior exercise as they not only target the glutes but require a lot of erector stabilization to perform.
The hams and the glutes are certainly associated with back pain, and of the muscle groups mentioned, the core, the glutes, the hams, and the erectors, of those, the erectors are the least important for back pain. They are already really strong muscles since if you are sitting or standing upright you are already working them to some extent.
>extensions can place a lot of force on the lumbar spine, which can be dangerous for anyone with a disc disorder or a pars defect, or if someone has spondye-boisthesis, spondylosis, or scoliosis.
This dude has sponye-boisthesis and he's doing twice the weight I'm doing on back extensions lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eY8kl6N0dM From my own experience I think that if anything, back extensions produce the least stress on the structure out of all movements that load the erectors, since there's pretty much no axial loading (and at the bottom of the movement, your spine actually gets decompressed like a dead hang. Probably why my back always feels amazing after doing them tbh) >If you want to train your glutes, RDLs or SLRDLs are the far superior exercise as they not only target the glutes but require a lot of erector stabilization to perform.
They're not bad exercises, I do them all the time but I find that they're much more hamstring dominant, and they train the glutes more so in the stretched position, not the contracted position. >The hams and the glutes are certainly associated with back pain, and of the muscle groups mentioned, the core, the glutes, the hams, and the erectors, of those, the erectors are the least important for back pain. They are already really strong muscles since if you are sitting or standing upright you are already working them to some extent.
Maybe, but for me personally back extensions cured my back pain, and one of the side effects is that my erectors blew up and became very prominent. Back extensions train the glutes and hamstrings as well anyway, so all you'd need to do is some ab work (which is really easy to fit in) and you'd be good
In spondye-boisthesis, you have to understand what is happening biomechanically when you do an extension. When your erectors fire, they will push your lumbar spine anteriorly just because of the way the lumbar spine is designed. It's not just decompression, if the spine were straight, I could maybe see it. That guy doing that lift with spondy is certainly playing with fire, because once spondy reaches a certain point, surgery is required and back fusion is NOT a surgery that fixes pain, studies show that there's either no improvement of pain or worse pain as the surgery also damages vital stabilizing muscles.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20736894/
>They're not bad exercises, I do them all the time but I find that they're much more hamstring dominant, and they train the glutes more so in the stretched position, not the contracted position.
You feel RDLs in your hamstrings because you are stretching the hamstrings under load, eccentric lifting is the best possible way to not only build muscle, but to injury proof any muscle.
>Maybe, but for me personally back extensions cured my back pain
I did say erectors do play a part, and weak erectors can be a problem, but you are training your erectors any time you pick up weight and the erectors are primarily type 1 fibers, they love endurance type training.
>In spondye-boisthesis, you have to understand what is happening biomechanically when you do an extension. When your erectors fire, they will push your lumbar spine anteriorly just because of the way the lumbar spine is designed. It's not just decompression, if the spine were straight, I could maybe see it. That guy doing that lift with spondy is certainly playing with fire, because once spondy reaches a certain point, surgery is required and back fusion is NOT a surgery that fixes pain, studies show that there's either no improvement of pain or worse pain as the surgery also damages vital stabilizing muscles. >https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20736894/
Wouldn't this also mean that you can't do RDLs/SLDLs without issues? Your back functions the same way on back extensions as on those lifts, the erectors contract isometrically to keep the spine neutral while the hip extensors move the weight. Your spine shouldn't flex or extend during the movement (unless you're specifically doing a round-back variation, but most people don't do that) >You feel RDLs in your hamstrings because you are stretching the hamstrings under load, eccentric lifting is the best possible way to not only build muscle, but to injury proof any muscle.
I completely agree. My only gripe is that on hinge movements with minimal knee bend, the hamstrings tend to give out way earlier than the glutes, so if I was aiming for glutes here instead I would go with deficit deadlifts or unilateral squat pattern movements (lunges, BSS, step ups, etc) instead. >I did say erectors do play a part, and weak erectors can be a problem, but you are training your erectors any time you pick up weight and the erectors are primarily type 1 fibers, they love endurance type training.
You can do back extensions for high reps so that isn't an issue (and in fact many people do them for high reps exclusively, eg 15-20.)
In spondye-boisthesis, you have to understand what is happening biomechanically when you do an extension. When your erectors fire, they will push your lumbar spine anteriorly just because of the way the lumbar spine is designed. It's not just decompression, if the spine were straight, I could maybe see it. That guy doing that lift with spondy is certainly playing with fire, because once spondy reaches a certain point, surgery is required and back fusion is NOT a surgery that fixes pain, studies show that there's either no improvement of pain or worse pain as the surgery also damages vital stabilizing muscles.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20736894/
>They're not bad exercises, I do them all the time but I find that they're much more hamstring dominant, and they train the glutes more so in the stretched position, not the contracted position.
You feel RDLs in your hamstrings because you are stretching the hamstrings under load, eccentric lifting is the best possible way to not only build muscle, but to injury proof any muscle.
>Maybe, but for me personally back extensions cured my back pain
I did say erectors do play a part, and weak erectors can be a problem, but you are training your erectors any time you pick up weight and the erectors are primarily type 1 fibers, they love endurance type training.
Hey anon, good posts. Any tips for someone with AS? I need to correct my APT, need a stronger core, glutes and hammies and ES are tight pulling the hips. Floor abwork isn't a go for me and I've abstained barbell work due to spinal load. Legs are strong, upper body strong, hip hinge not good. There's SI and L disc degredation. Daily pain and fatigue but I persevere. I've got a whole range of static stretches but I'd like something more dynamic. I'm going to an exercise physio school soon to look into things further. I've accepted there's probably movements I cannot do anymore (things like bb squats) but I'm not giving up.
I'm not a physio, I just have a lot of problems and have had to become an expert to help myself because medical professionals offer very little.
As for AS, I don't know a whole lot about it, if your vertabrae aren't fused yet, the best thing to do is to see what you can do without pain and work from there.
If you can't do floor abwork, you may be able to do standing abwork against a wall. You may also get some value in just carrying things upright. I would also say that you may want to look at implementing an anti inflammatory diet as that may yield pretty good results if your problem is inflammation.
Physiotherapy is all about regressing to a point of pain free range of motion and then attempting to progress from there. So you test yourself out, get just to the point of pain, then that's your starting point. This is crucial for inflammatory problems because you will exacerbate the inflammation if you push into pain. The only time you should push into pain is when you are dealing with scar tissue. A good place to start would be to just google / youtube your issues and exercises for it to get an idea of what to do.
Yoga might be something you should look into doing.
I can relate, I've worked through this for years, just looking at taking care of the 1%ers to improve my overall constitution and rely less on pharma. I'm maintaining a reduced inflammation diet in conjunction with mineral/vitamin supplementation. The yoga thing would definitely be beneficial. All the best on your journey anon.
Is it normal to not get better at planks? I've been doing a minute after every workout for months now and it's still just as grueling as it was the first time.
try breaking them up. You need to challenge yourself also, so do 1 minute 1 second if you must.
Although I would say doing sets of something like 30-45 seconds would be better, because then you can add seconds. Like you do your first set to 45 seconds, then second third and fourth sets at 30 seconds, then next time you do 46 seconds or you add a second to the subsequent sets until you get 45-35-35 etc.
Just try to figure out a way to incrementally improve. You don't have to improve every time you do them, you can do a set amount for a week, then you can progress the next week.
leg raises are primarily a hip flexor exercise, this is why during a plank you tighten your glutes to turn off the hip flexors
Hip thrusts aren't really going to be doing anything for the core and are mostly a glute exercise
side planks, while important, aren't going to exercise the anterior core nor the transverse abdiminis. A good way to tell if your TA is weak is putting your hand on your back, near your spine, and flexing your core, if you don't feel any activation back there, you have a weak TA and bad core proprioception and you should do planks.
If you must do any kind of contraction based ab work out, reverse crunches are far more better and will target the abs much more than any leg raise, especially if they are done correctly.
>leg raises are primarily a hip flexor exercise, this is why during a plank you tighten your glutes to turn off the hip flexors
Only thing I'll say is that while this is true for most people, if you really focus on using your abs (pretty easy to do actually, just focus on curling your pelvis upwards), leg raises become a phenomenal ab movement. I barely feel my hip flexors at all when doing them, even though my hip flexors are decently strong. That being said the hip flexors will always be involved to some extent, however this isn't necessarily a bad thing since most people could do with more hip flexor work (as well as stuff to lengthen the hip flexors, since you want strong and flexible hip flexors, not weak and tight ones).
what about elbows?
only gays work out elbows
band pushdowns or dual rope pushdowns
Just use some elbow grease
Arnold press.
stick dislocations fix your shoulders better
>so…what are we?
big stiffy you know I'll always come to you for examples of good form...but I don't know if this relationship has good form
Oh, it's the famous buddhapress.
jej
what's this work? there's no red
infraspinatus and teres minor
paint me like one of your zyzz girls
Please don't go heavy on that last exercise, use lighter weights - it's meant to help strengthen your rotator cuff and is easy to go too hard.
>this fucking thread
I just finished my AB wheel exercise anon please keep the funny to a sensible chuckle level.
How light are we talking? I been using a 10 lbs plate doing 3x12
>How light are we talking?
not to failure, not even close to failure
he's exaggerating but you should do 12 reps with the last one being when you start being fatigued. so you leave 2-3 reps in the tank.
Never seen these done with dumbbells before. Usually it is done with a resistance band (standing, not laying down like a fag).
Bands are ok but you can't really progress with them. Db or cable is a lot better imo
*yawn* yeah, sure uhh... tomorrow, yeah.
Good thread
blessed thread
most people do not need to strengthen their erectors, they need to stretch them, what they need to do for their back pain is train their core. Most people have an anterior pelvic tilt, which means they are tight in their back and weak in their core.
Training the back can help as a tight muscle is also a weak muscle as it has degraded over time from being chronically contracted, but to fix back pain, the usual prescription is core work.
weak glutes also contribute to APT, and back extensions train those very well. either way, having stronger erectors is your best defense against back pain, so a movement that allows you to train your erectors with fairly low amounts of axial loading is a great option. As for abs, I expect everyone to have some sort of ab work in their program anyway because it's very easy to fit in. Personally ab wheel is my go-to for building isometric strength (more specific to how your abs function during compound movements), but weighted situps and leg raises are also very good for building general muscle and strength in the abs.
extensions can place a lot of force on the lumbar spine, which can be dangerous for anyone with a disc disorder or a pars defect, or if someone has spondye-boisthesis, spondylosis, or scoliosis. Generally speaking, physical therapists don't prescribe extensions for any type of back pain because the risk and reward ratio is so bad. If you want to train your glutes, RDLs or SLRDLs are the far superior exercise as they not only target the glutes but require a lot of erector stabilization to perform.
The hams and the glutes are certainly associated with back pain, and of the muscle groups mentioned, the core, the glutes, the hams, and the erectors, of those, the erectors are the least important for back pain. They are already really strong muscles since if you are sitting or standing upright you are already working them to some extent.
>extensions can place a lot of force on the lumbar spine, which can be dangerous for anyone with a disc disorder or a pars defect, or if someone has spondye-boisthesis, spondylosis, or scoliosis.
This dude has sponye-boisthesis and he's doing twice the weight I'm doing on back extensions lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eY8kl6N0dM From my own experience I think that if anything, back extensions produce the least stress on the structure out of all movements that load the erectors, since there's pretty much no axial loading (and at the bottom of the movement, your spine actually gets decompressed like a dead hang. Probably why my back always feels amazing after doing them tbh)
>If you want to train your glutes, RDLs or SLRDLs are the far superior exercise as they not only target the glutes but require a lot of erector stabilization to perform.
They're not bad exercises, I do them all the time but I find that they're much more hamstring dominant, and they train the glutes more so in the stretched position, not the contracted position.
>The hams and the glutes are certainly associated with back pain, and of the muscle groups mentioned, the core, the glutes, the hams, and the erectors, of those, the erectors are the least important for back pain. They are already really strong muscles since if you are sitting or standing upright you are already working them to some extent.
Maybe, but for me personally back extensions cured my back pain, and one of the side effects is that my erectors blew up and became very prominent. Back extensions train the glutes and hamstrings as well anyway, so all you'd need to do is some ab work (which is really easy to fit in) and you'd be good
In spondye-boisthesis, you have to understand what is happening biomechanically when you do an extension. When your erectors fire, they will push your lumbar spine anteriorly just because of the way the lumbar spine is designed. It's not just decompression, if the spine were straight, I could maybe see it. That guy doing that lift with spondy is certainly playing with fire, because once spondy reaches a certain point, surgery is required and back fusion is NOT a surgery that fixes pain, studies show that there's either no improvement of pain or worse pain as the surgery also damages vital stabilizing muscles.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20736894/
>They're not bad exercises, I do them all the time but I find that they're much more hamstring dominant, and they train the glutes more so in the stretched position, not the contracted position.
You feel RDLs in your hamstrings because you are stretching the hamstrings under load, eccentric lifting is the best possible way to not only build muscle, but to injury proof any muscle.
>Maybe, but for me personally back extensions cured my back pain
I did say erectors do play a part, and weak erectors can be a problem, but you are training your erectors any time you pick up weight and the erectors are primarily type 1 fibers, they love endurance type training.
Damn anon, break between patients?
Have a good one
>In spondye-boisthesis, you have to understand what is happening biomechanically when you do an extension. When your erectors fire, they will push your lumbar spine anteriorly just because of the way the lumbar spine is designed. It's not just decompression, if the spine were straight, I could maybe see it. That guy doing that lift with spondy is certainly playing with fire, because once spondy reaches a certain point, surgery is required and back fusion is NOT a surgery that fixes pain, studies show that there's either no improvement of pain or worse pain as the surgery also damages vital stabilizing muscles.
>https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20736894/
Wouldn't this also mean that you can't do RDLs/SLDLs without issues? Your back functions the same way on back extensions as on those lifts, the erectors contract isometrically to keep the spine neutral while the hip extensors move the weight. Your spine shouldn't flex or extend during the movement (unless you're specifically doing a round-back variation, but most people don't do that)
>You feel RDLs in your hamstrings because you are stretching the hamstrings under load, eccentric lifting is the best possible way to not only build muscle, but to injury proof any muscle.
I completely agree. My only gripe is that on hinge movements with minimal knee bend, the hamstrings tend to give out way earlier than the glutes, so if I was aiming for glutes here instead I would go with deficit deadlifts or unilateral squat pattern movements (lunges, BSS, step ups, etc) instead.
>I did say erectors do play a part, and weak erectors can be a problem, but you are training your erectors any time you pick up weight and the erectors are primarily type 1 fibers, they love endurance type training.
You can do back extensions for high reps so that isn't an issue (and in fact many people do them for high reps exclusively, eg 15-20.)
Hey anon, good posts. Any tips for someone with AS? I need to correct my APT, need a stronger core, glutes and hammies and ES are tight pulling the hips. Floor abwork isn't a go for me and I've abstained barbell work due to spinal load. Legs are strong, upper body strong, hip hinge not good. There's SI and L disc degredation. Daily pain and fatigue but I persevere. I've got a whole range of static stretches but I'd like something more dynamic. I'm going to an exercise physio school soon to look into things further. I've accepted there's probably movements I cannot do anymore (things like bb squats) but I'm not giving up.
I'm not a physio, I just have a lot of problems and have had to become an expert to help myself because medical professionals offer very little.
As for AS, I don't know a whole lot about it, if your vertabrae aren't fused yet, the best thing to do is to see what you can do without pain and work from there.
If you can't do floor abwork, you may be able to do standing abwork against a wall. You may also get some value in just carrying things upright. I would also say that you may want to look at implementing an anti inflammatory diet as that may yield pretty good results if your problem is inflammation.
Physiotherapy is all about regressing to a point of pain free range of motion and then attempting to progress from there. So you test yourself out, get just to the point of pain, then that's your starting point. This is crucial for inflammatory problems because you will exacerbate the inflammation if you push into pain. The only time you should push into pain is when you are dealing with scar tissue. A good place to start would be to just google / youtube your issues and exercises for it to get an idea of what to do.
Yoga might be something you should look into doing.
I can relate, I've worked through this for years, just looking at taking care of the 1%ers to improve my overall constitution and rely less on pharma. I'm maintaining a reduced inflammation diet in conjunction with mineral/vitamin supplementation. The yoga thing would definitely be beneficial. All the best on your journey anon.
Is it normal to not get better at planks? I've been doing a minute after every workout for months now and it's still just as grueling as it was the first time.
try breaking them up. You need to challenge yourself also, so do 1 minute 1 second if you must.
Although I would say doing sets of something like 30-45 seconds would be better, because then you can add seconds. Like you do your first set to 45 seconds, then second third and fourth sets at 30 seconds, then next time you do 46 seconds or you add a second to the subsequent sets until you get 45-35-35 etc.
Just try to figure out a way to incrementally improve. You don't have to improve every time you do them, you can do a set amount for a week, then you can progress the next week.
planks are completely useless, just do leg raises/hip thrusts/sideplanks
leg raises are primarily a hip flexor exercise, this is why during a plank you tighten your glutes to turn off the hip flexors
Hip thrusts aren't really going to be doing anything for the core and are mostly a glute exercise
side planks, while important, aren't going to exercise the anterior core nor the transverse abdiminis. A good way to tell if your TA is weak is putting your hand on your back, near your spine, and flexing your core, if you don't feel any activation back there, you have a weak TA and bad core proprioception and you should do planks.
If you must do any kind of contraction based ab work out, reverse crunches are far more better and will target the abs much more than any leg raise, especially if they are done correctly.
>reverse crunches are far more better and will target the ab
what about regular crunches then?
>leg raises are primarily a hip flexor exercise, this is why during a plank you tighten your glutes to turn off the hip flexors
Only thing I'll say is that while this is true for most people, if you really focus on using your abs (pretty easy to do actually, just focus on curling your pelvis upwards), leg raises become a phenomenal ab movement. I barely feel my hip flexors at all when doing them, even though my hip flexors are decently strong. That being said the hip flexors will always be involved to some extent, however this isn't necessarily a bad thing since most people could do with more hip flexor work (as well as stuff to lengthen the hip flexors, since you want strong and flexible hip flexors, not weak and tight ones).
lunges really fix knees?
pic is ATG split squats, not lunges. Similar movement though, you just have a longer stride length that allows you to get full knee bend