High Intensity Training

Redpill me on HIT advocated by Mentzer, Yates and partially also incorporated in Wendler's 531, Doggcrapp and Westside.

On paper, considering current research, it should not only be sub-optimal, it shouldn't fucking work at all. Weekly volume for most body parts would be below 8 working sets, that's barely effective volume threshold advocated by elite level coaches (Israetel e.g.), not to mention "optimal" growth.

On the other hand, Mentzer swore by it and so did his student Yates, who became six time mr olympia. Wendler, Trudel and Defranco also utilize this method, and their programs are well respected in fitness. The fact that Mentzer and Yates were on steroids does not answer the question how did they get so fucking massive with quarter of the volume done by their bodybuilding peers back then.

Tell me the truth IST

  1. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    The truth is, Mentzer, Yates, Wendler, etc. all started training as literal children and did the classic high volume shit that every other bodybuilder does. They then started taking steroids at 16-18 and packed on size like a motherfucker; mentzer won some Pennsylvania show at 18 literal decades before he was talking about HIT.

    So does HIT work? Maybe, maybe not. You can try it if you want. Does high volume work? Absolutely and this has been demonstrated for over a century.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      OP, I agree with , HIT is practiced by few and its only done by people who have already tried an established common program like PPL or a brosplit. If this shit truly worked, everyone would be talking about it because ultimately people want their results fast. These guys, yates and mentzer have top genetics and are also hyper responders to roids. They were already big, took roids, got even bigger and then started preaching HIT. Stick to what works. How many bodybuilders do HIT today? All the top guys preach progressive overload and good form and time under tension for maximal hypertrophy. I guess ultimately, its up to you how you want to lift. If this shit seems suspect, its probably because it is.

      Also, If you are advanced and regular sets dont really do the trick anymore, you can always try to do dropsets, cluster sets, and pause reps along side your regular sets. The primary mechanism for muscle growth is really simple and it just comes down to pushing your body to the point where your muscles have microtears and your body has to repair them and make the adaptations to grow bigger. I just don't think its possible to do that by going to failure with a tiny amount of volume.

      Sorry if this seems disorganized, like writing-wise. Im just kinda tired

  2. 2 months ago
    BraveLemonIsAFatNiggerFuckHim

    BraveLemon is doing HIF, High Intensity gayry

  3. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    It's a scam. He never trained that way either. Heavy Duty came out over 10 years after he retired and became a pudgy meth addict. You just want it to be real because doing 1 set of squats once a month is easier than anything else.

  4. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    wouldn't do it in your regular sets if you're going for strength, but some HIIT for cardio, fitness & health on the side. Imo it's better to take longer rests so you have full strength each set. Just check out the programs of modern weight lifters and bodybuilders and do what they do or try it.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >Just check out the programs of modern weight lifters and bodybuilders and do what they do or try it.
      you couldn't come up with a worse advice for natties if you tried

      OP, I agree with , HIT is practiced by few and its only done by people who have already tried an established common program like PPL or a brosplit. If this shit truly worked, everyone would be talking about it because ultimately people want their results fast. These guys, yates and mentzer have top genetics and are also hyper responders to roids. They were already big, took roids, got even bigger and then started preaching HIT. Stick to what works. How many bodybuilders do HIT today? All the top guys preach progressive overload and good form and time under tension for maximal hypertrophy. I guess ultimately, its up to you how you want to lift. If this shit seems suspect, its probably because it is.

      Also, If you are advanced and regular sets dont really do the trick anymore, you can always try to do dropsets, cluster sets, and pause reps along side your regular sets. The primary mechanism for muscle growth is really simple and it just comes down to pushing your body to the point where your muscles have microtears and your body has to repair them and make the adaptations to grow bigger. I just don't think its possible to do that by going to failure with a tiny amount of volume.

      Sorry if this seems disorganized, like writing-wise. Im just kinda tired

      >If this shit truly worked, everyone would be talking about it because ultimately people want their results fast
      I mean it's not the idea of shortcut or something of that nature, consider it more as a program, which was designed to prioritize recovery and maximize growth with minimal stimuli. HIT is no exception to good form and progressive overload also.

      >The primary mechanism for muscle growth is really simple and it just comes down to pushing your body to the point where your muscles have microtears and your body has to repair them and make the adaptations to grow bigger
      yes, exactly, and the question is whether doing one all-out set isn't enough to stimulate it or do you have to do 3-5 sets close to failure instead

      It's a scam. He never trained that way either. Heavy Duty came out over 10 years after he retired and became a pudgy meth addict. You just want it to be real because doing 1 set of squats once a month is easier than anything else.

      >You just want it to be real because doing 1 set of squats once a month is easier than anything else.
      I agree Mentzer final thoughts on training were pretty fucking strange, taking 7-9 days off and so on, but maybe he wasn't wrong about everything, maybe squatting once a week with an all-out set in 5-10 rep range IS enough to promote growth, remind you original 5/3/1 and WS4SB also squat only once a week with one AMRAP set

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        You are one of the few people I've seen that notes the functional similarity of 5/3/1 and HIT: several warmups to one all out set to at/near positive failure.

        More broadly, I think that everything works for a while--HIT included--and nothing works forever. That's why it's important to understand the fundamental variables to training: intensity, volume, frequency, and how to manipulate them. Then, you can wave between periods of increasing volume or intensity without getting locked into a "one true way" approach and getting bogged down and stagnant.

        So YES, HIT can work, but it not forever and not at the exclusion of everything else.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >maybe squatting once a week with an all-out set in 5-10 rep range IS enough to promote growth
        No it's not.

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          source: trust me bro

  5. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Recently I've done this

    >6day PPL
    >HIT, 30 second rest time
    >2 sets each rep, top set/back off set
    >first set is 8-12
    >second set is 12-15
    >6 exercises per workout

    I'm natural and look better than I ever have from this. 25m minute work out

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      post body

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        im dyel
        after cut might not be, we will see

  6. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Actual observable facts
    >Mentzer built his physique on volume training (picrel), HIT is something he shilled during the end of his career, after partnering up with Nautilus
    >Nautilus was infamous for being the "le science training" equivalent of its time, used a roiding bodybuilder in the Colorado experiment to shill its equipment, with no mention of his dosages or even use
    >both Mentzer and Yates were steroid users, and not just recreational steroid users but competitive bodybuilders
    My opinion: I have never seen a natty who took Mentzer's advice to heart and looked good. Mentzer's magnum opus consolidation routine that promised natty limit results in 2 months has only produced dyels thus far. It may be an excelent way of training for roiders but I think that it's not enough for natties even though I love and incorporate intensity in my workouts.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      is

      Recently I've done this

      >6day PPL
      >HIT, 30 second rest time
      >2 sets each rep, top set/back off set
      >first set is 8-12
      >second set is 12-15
      >6 exercises per workout

      I'm natural and look better than I ever have from this. 25m minute work out

      this HIT?

      or am i just doing faster workouts

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >My opinion: I have never seen a natty who took Mentzer's advice to heart and looked good.
      have you seen a natty who took Arnold's six day split with 20+ sets per day and looked good?

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        No but that's the extension of my argument. If you are natty don't listen to roiders in general, no matter how tempted you may feel.

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      all of these are ad hominems and completely irrelevant to whether or not HIT is a valid theory of exercise science.

      >Mentzer's magnum opus consolidation routine that promised natty limit results in 2 months
      why are you so unashamed of lying like a bastard?

      >It may be an excellent way of training for roiders but I think that it's not enough for natties
      Explain to me why less volume would be better for roiders and more volume better for natties.
      I have a feeling you're mentally challenged.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        >ad hominem
        Everything I mentioned in the first part of my post is factual, except if you consider calling someone a steroid user as an ad hominem
        >why are you so unashamed of lying like a bastard?
        Perhaps I misjudged but I remember reading this somewhere
        >Explain to me why less volume would be better for roiders and more volume better for natties.
        My personal observation, I've never seen a natty with good results from his methods of training
        >I have a feeling you're mentally challenged
        Ironic coming from the boy who cried ad hominem

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          >I've never seen a natty with good results from his methods of training
          How many people have you seen doing HIT tho? It's a super fringe group of lifters and most of them are people who just started doing HIT because its recently growing in popularity

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            These people also don't understand that high intensity is extremely difficult to do. You cannot just try it for a month and say that it works or doesn't. You'll be doing it for a year before you're actually able to produce what could be considered high intensity. And being that good at lifting and being natty just isn't gonna have a lot of overlap.

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              >And being that good at lifting and being natty just isn't gonna have a lot of overlap
              What?! It's just doing a set or two to failure for each muscle group. Yeah its hard and you need to learn to push beyond a pain barrier but why would it be harder for roiders? It has nothing to do with weight, it's just about reaching complete muscle failure

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                The pain tolerance is a big filter but it's not the only factor. You need the right lift or combination of lifts and you need to be at a certain level of strength with them first (which is why intensity actually has to be progressed to from volume) and then you need to be doing them in such an order and at such a frequency where they don't interfere with each other. It's a long road. And a lot of guys are jumping on roids before they finish their first 5X5. You don't think most dudes who can do all this successfully aren't gonna want to see how massive it'll make them with roids?

            • 2 months ago
              Anonymous

              Lifting to failure/high intensity is a mental barrier more than anything else.
              Coking yourself up on cialis/dmaa or some other stim will make you go hard as a motherfucker even if you're a scrawny twig.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Stimulants aren't energy. They even cost energy to use. You'll feel like you're working hard but so do coked out line cooks and pharma'd up soccer moms in zumba classes. You'll be doing less and needing more recovery for it.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                You sound like a retarded redneck, my moron.
                Stimulants STIMULATE. You WILL push harder on a bunch of stims, it's not even a fucking question, you monkey.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Energy comes from food and food alone. If you need stimulants to use your own muscles then you have no business fucking with HIT and if you can't understand that this stimulation costs you the energy you need to use to lift and recover then you have no business posting. I am a redneck though, you got that right.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                >Energy comes from food and food alone
                Nobody is talking where energy is coming from lmao.

                >If you need stimulants to use your own muscles
                Strawman. It's about breaking through your mental barrier that is cucking you from pushing through where you wouldn't be able to without stimulants.
                Even placebo gets the job done, there's been studies done on that.

                >you have no business fucking with HIT
                >t. dyel nobody with shit form

                >this stimulation costs you the energy you need to use to lift and recover
                moron, what is this momscience?
                If you're not in a deficit/under a lot of stress, you don't have to worry about burning your CNS/muscles out, the fuck are you talking about lmao.

                Certified bruh moment.

              • 2 months ago
                Anonymous

                Epineprhine literally gives you energy you fucking bird brain retard.

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        calm down and get mentzers dick off your mouth you hystrionic woman

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      >It may be an excelent way of training for roiders but I think that it's not enough for natties
      I think it might be the opposite tbh, roiders can get away using high volume, because they regenerate faster, natties not so much, that's why working up to all-out heavy set and moving on would make sense.

      I don't fucking know tbh, Mentzer life story doesn't help either, his HIT philosophy makes absolute sense at least at first glance, it's not just pulled out of thin air, there's a 2 hour seminar from 1998 on it on youtube. He seemed like a very clever guy, made many enemies in bodybuilding along the way criticizing Arnold, Weider and Poliquin, eventually suggested taking 7 days off between workouts, died at 49 smoking like a chimney and apparently being an amphetamine addict, his bodybuilding brother died 2 days after

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        My main problem is the autismal obsession over training methods. IST seems to attract these types of people, on IST it's console wars, here it's diet and (less common cause nobody here lifts anymore) method wars. Mentzer seems to have an extreme cult following in particular, no doubt thanks to being an underdog fucked over by the Weiders and developing a dogmatic way of training. It's tiring man, I wish people would stop looking for that holy grail and actually start lifting before trying to force it down other people's throats. At the end of the day consistency and patience beat all.

  7. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    i thought high intensity training was literally just training with high intensity, are you telling me theres stupid books and workout plans using that umbrella term?

    damn ~~*they*~~ were fucking robbing people and shilling even back then ffs

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      in terms of what Mentzer advocated, high intensity = heavy weight, 6-10 rep maxes

  8. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    Mentzer only counted his peak sets as work sets. He did far more volume off paper than on paper due to "warmup sets" most of us wouldn't consider warm-ups.

    It works, but it tears up your joints and isn't sustainable into later life. Works fine if you're in your 20s or 30s though and hopefully on gear.

  9. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    HIT is buried, the new trend and scientific way of training high intensity low volume is called fortitude training by scot stevenson

  10. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >redpill me on a training program made by roiders that worked for them

    • 2 months ago
      Anonymous

      Why would something that makes a roider have 35ffmi not make you have 25?

      • 2 months ago
        Anonymous

        Because steroids dont just make you gain more muscle. They speed up your recovery which is why natties need more rest. Growth only comes after recovery from training as overcompensation for the muscle damage incurred in training

        • 2 months ago
          Anonymous

          And what's stopping a natty from simply resting long enough?

          • 2 months ago
            Anonymous

            Nothing. That's why I do. But most people here will advocate for training 5-6 days a week

  11. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    You want the truth? Pay attention because every other comment in this thread will likely be dog shit. It CAN work if:
    1. You are not natty (most important)
    2. You are an advanced lifter
    3. You are capable of pushing yourself extremely hard
    Still not really convinced it’s optimal but if you satisfy those three criteria then have at it. If you are natty prepare for suboptimal results (although I guess realistically you should be prepared for that anyway as a natty)

  12. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    >On paper, considering current research, it should not only be sub-optimal, it shouldn't fucking work at all
    Unless you take the roids into account. Roids let you up the volume roughly 3 - 6 times.

  13. 2 months ago
    Anonymous

    I've tried high volume training to (failure too) Currently I'm doing a 3 day split with about 5-6 working sets per body part with around 8 reps per set and a few rest pause extra reps. I seem to be getting good results on my cut. (I got fat and out of shape) hard for me to tell exactly how well it's working since my bf is still around 20%, but the one difference I seem to notice is that my physique seems to have a more solid and mature look to it whereas before it looked more pumped up. If that makes any sense. I'm curious myself how it will all look once I lean out and carb up. But thus far 45 mins HIT sessions seem to be working well for me.

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