Both are wrong. Veganism is one of the most retarded "diets". Avoiding lean meat, fish, eggs, and yoghurt only makes you weaker and less healthy. And you can eat donuts, chips, and other seed oil laden flour shit all day while still eating "vegan". Eating more vegetables and less processed food is good, but it has nothing to do with avoiding unprocessed animal foods.
>Shifting the goalposts this much.
Gee, it looks like your brain isn't functioning too well. I wonder why... Surely it couldn't be nutritional deficiencies from a subhuman diet could it...? A lack of essential vitamins, minerals and protein surely couldn't affect brain function that much could it...?
>Shifting the goalposts this much.
I specifically asked >I have never seen a single study saying any of those improves health in any way. >improves health
And the best you could do is provide something that said >lean red meat, trimmed of visible fat, which is consumed in a diet low in saturated fat does not increase cardiovascular risk factors >does not increase
Not reducing it either.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>Lean red meat is also a good source of protein, omega-3 fatty acids, vitamin B12, niacin, zinc and iron
I understand that subhumans like yourself think that such nutrients do not improve one's health (after all, without them you very nearly resemble the cognitive abilities of an adolescent), but in any case, you absolutely did shift goalposts by changing "health" to specifically "heart health", and moreover initially shifted the goalposts as the guy you originally replied to said that avoiding those foods is a detriment to health, but now your demanding to see that consuming those foods is a benefit to heart health (compared to normal) - a claim which is hardly possible to prove as the norm is eating such foods.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Yes meat is a good source of those (if the livestock has been supplemented with B12, which it usually is, like how dairy is injected with vitamin D before shipping it to markets). So are most plants humans regularly eat rich in those. For B12 you just need a supplement directly. High meat eaters are in fact more likely to miss several micronutrients than vegans.
Unless I only eat locally harvested veggies then vegan products will be imported from overseas, which is more environmentally (and climate if you believe in that) unfriendly than local animal produce.
The vegan options also lack the necessary vitamins and nutrients with only local vegetables making imported wares the only option. It's also very expensive because of this.
>vegan products will be imported from overseas, which is more environmentally (and climate if you believe in that) unfriendly than local animal produce
No they won't. You really think vegans only eat durians and coconuts or what?
if it stops depression why are most vegans depressed
It's a chronic condition. Likewise you could ask why people popping antidepressants are depressed if the pills cure it. They don't cure it, only alleviates it.
2 months ago
Anonymous
so if meat causes so much inflammation and disease why is it that you people are more depressed? either depressed people are drawn to a vegan diet, or it causes it, pick one.
2 months ago
Anonymous
how can you be happy when you know psycho normies kill poor baby animals and wouldnt stop
2 months ago
Anonymous
See
All of those are wrong. No idea where you got those lies from.
[...]
Correlation is not causation. Vegan diet is causally linked to reducing depression via increased production of propionates which boosts serotonin. It is a self-medication remedy for those suffering from those ailments. I know, I'm one of the sad socks. Had a hikky phase even. You either go (high-fiber) vegan or you pop the antidepressants to alleviate depression with all their side-effects like 13% of Americans do.
&
Yes meat is a good source of those (if the livestock has been supplemented with B12, which it usually is, like how dairy is injected with vitamin D before shipping it to markets). So are most plants humans regularly eat rich in those. For B12 you just need a supplement directly. High meat eaters are in fact more likely to miss several micronutrients than vegans.
[...] >vegan products will be imported from overseas, which is more environmentally (and climate if you believe in that) unfriendly than local animal produce
No they won't. You really think vegans only eat durians and coconuts or what?
[...]
It's a chronic condition. Likewise you could ask why people popping antidepressants are depressed if the pills cure it. They don't cure it, only alleviates it.
so yes >depressed people are drawn to a vegan diet
is the correct answer. kinda same as why anxiety disordered self-medicate with weed.
2 months ago
Anonymous
can you prove that depressed people are drawn to a vegan diet?
2 months ago
Anonymous
I doubt I can, but I can prove that SFA aka propionates produced in colon from fiber are causal to increasing serotonin in brain. Been known for a long time.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0141813020353381 >The in-depth mechanism studies indicated that the gut microbiota could improve the depression symptom through the gut-brain axis (GBA). As unique plant polysaccharides, dietary fiber can effectively modulate the intestinal flora disorders and its crucial role in orchestrating host-microbiota crosstalk has been confirmed. This review highlights the mechanisms that the gut microbiota affects the development of depression through GBA and focuses on dietary fiber intervention on the improvement of intestinal microbiota imbalance, which may provide new ideas for the prevention and treatment of depression.
2 months ago
Anonymous
how tf are vegans more depressed? there's no way that's true i was the happiest i ever was in my life when i became vegan even still being an incel
Both are wrong. Veganism is one of the most retarded "diets". Avoiding lean meat, fish, eggs, and yoghurt only makes you weaker and less healthy. And you can eat donuts, chips, and other seed oil laden flour shit all day while still eating "vegan". Eating more vegetables and less processed food is good, but it has nothing to do with avoiding unprocessed animal foods.
don't care, i have trouble digesting meats and sick of it making me horny for no reason
2 months ago
Anonymous
[citation needed]
Every single one of those claims requires multiple studies. You can't just spout random shit and expect any reasonable person to believe you.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>We conclude that there are dietary inadequacies in all dietary groups. In people following self-selected plant-based diets, especially vegan diets, intake, and status of certain nutrients is lower compared to meat-containing diets, with an increased risk of inadequacy for vitamin B12, vitamin D, EPA, DHA, calcium, iron (particularly in women), zinc and iodine. Of these nutrients, also meat-eaters were found to be at risk of inadequate vitamin D and calcium intake. >On the other hand, people following plant-based diets, particularly vegan diets, had higher intakes of PUFA, ALA, fiber, folate, vitamin E and magnesium, which were found to be at risk of inadequacy among meat-eaters. >Additionally, the intake of vitamin B1, B6 and C was considerably higher, especially in vegans.
https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/14/1/29
Vegans beat meat eaters - that is all groups of meat eaters - in nutrition intake adequacy 12 to 8 micronutrients with rest being about equal.
>inb4 I don't accept this study on vague reasons
2 months ago
Anonymous
Livestock doesn't need to be supplemented with b12 you disingenuous cunt. All ruminants can synthesize their own b12 in their gut. The only reason why a cow 'may' need a cobalt lick is because it grain fed living in feedlots, which is not the ideal way raise to raise cattle in the first place.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Yes they do unless they live completely outside where they eat the soil with bacteria that is actually producing B12. Another form of cattle supplementing is adding cobalt to their feed, sure.
>All ruminants can synthesize their own b12 in their gut
Livestock mostly consists of non-ruminant chicken and pigs that definitely need supplementation unless again living completely outside licking dirt.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>chicken and pigs that definitely need supplementation
They are omnivores, they get their b12 from animal protein just like we do. Fucking retard.
2 months ago
Anonymous
And where does the animal protein come from again? Oh yeah mostly chicken and pigs.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Chickens eat bugs. Pigs eat bugs, small mammals, and lizards. Idiot.
2 months ago
Anonymous
So, if someone is 15% predisposed to a certain condition, and a diet increases the risk by 50%, is the actual risk 65% or 22.5%? This is how so many people were bullied into taking statins instead of just eating normal, unprocessed food of all types.
>I need a study citation to prove some of the most nutrient dense calorie efficient foods on the planet are healthy
Holy fuck some of you on this board are something else
No such study exists and meat is not even nutritious, nonvegans are more deficient and at higher risk of deficinencies than vegans see
>We conclude that there are dietary inadequacies in all dietary groups. In people following self-selected plant-based diets, especially vegan diets, intake, and status of certain nutrients is lower compared to meat-containing diets, with an increased risk of inadequacy for vitamin B12, vitamin D, EPA, DHA, calcium, iron (particularly in women), zinc and iodine. Of these nutrients, also meat-eaters were found to be at risk of inadequate vitamin D and calcium intake. >On the other hand, people following plant-based diets, particularly vegan diets, had higher intakes of PUFA, ALA, fiber, folate, vitamin E and magnesium, which were found to be at risk of inadequacy among meat-eaters. >Additionally, the intake of vitamin B1, B6 and C was considerably higher, especially in vegans.
https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/14/1/29
Vegans beat meat eaters - that is all groups of meat eaters - in nutrition intake adequacy 12 to 8 micronutrients with rest being about equal.
>inb4 I don't accept this study on vague reasons
The real reason why none of you directly answers with a study showing how eating meat improves any health metric in humans is because no such thing exist. 100% of evidence ever produced indicates that meat is bad for you.
Veganism is not inherently unhealthy, but it can make getting a balanced diet difficult. I see it as a handicap. Yes you can eat a high protein vegan diet and stay under/over a calorie threshold, but it's going to be so much harder than eating animal products.
It's like playing dark souls. Yes you can beat the entire game with a ladle, but it's going to be unnecessarily difficult and are you really going to have a good time?
>Yes you can eat a high protein vegan diet and stay under/over a calorie threshold, but it's going to be so much harder than eating animal products.
I'm curious why you think it's harder.
Because to get a complete amino acid profile you need to eat combinations of foods instead of just getting it from one source. You also need to eat more volume to get the same protein. Tofu has 1/4 less protein than chicken breast at only half the calories. So to eat an equal amount of protein with just tofu, you would need to eat 4x more, and you would have eaten twice as many calories. Again, it's possible, just harder than eating a meat based diet.
>Veganism is not inherently unhealthy
it is. hitting all targets on chronometer doesn't mean your body actually absorbs and can make use of those nutrients. there is far too much inter-individual variability to make a blanket statement like "veganism isn't unhealthy". yes, some people may do okay, and a few could even do great, but there are still a lot of people who do (a lot) worse even if they "do it right".
also, we still know way too little about the human body, nutrition, or the complexity of food and its interaction with the body.
>Causes numerous other diseases
Such as? >Feel like shit all the time
I don't, been at this for 3 years, best I've ever been >Looks sickly
I don't and neither do most known long-term vegans like Moby and Joaquin Phoenix
The first 30s to mars album was so based they clubbed him in the head and had to brainwash him into being a puppet.
Thats how he went from space fascism to shitty love songs so fast and why he seems so unhinged
>The first 30s to mars album was so based they-
Time to move on from elementary school, gay.
Maybe grow up and move out of your mom's basement? Christ. Listen to real music you tasteless gay.
All of those are wrong. No idea where you got those lies from.
https://i.imgur.com/WWRMmNZ.png
Correlation is not causation. Vegan diet is causally linked to reducing depression via increased production of propionates which boosts serotonin. It is a self-medication remedy for those suffering from those ailments. I know, I'm one of the sad socks. Had a hikky phase even. You either go (high-fiber) vegan or you pop the antidepressants to alleviate depression with all their side-effects like 13% of Americans do.
Unless I only eat locally harvested veggies then vegan products will be imported from overseas, which is more environmentally (and climate if you believe in that) unfriendly than local animal produce.
The vegan options also lack the necessary vitamins and nutrients with only local vegetables making imported wares the only option. It's also very expensive because of this.
if I were to go vegan I'd basically replace meat, fish and eggs with ~~*grains*~~ and ~~*sugar*~~. Could you shine some light on the benefits of that trade off?
Grains=saccharides=sugar.
Is your brain lacking function again, vegan? I guess it's tough being so lacking in essential nutrients that your cognition is permanently impaired. Don't worry though, I'm sure the government will recognize your disability and give you the support you need.
You're very confused.
Grains are starch which is chained glucose, which is the primary energy source of your body. In absence of glucose your body will catabolize existing muscle tissue to get it.
Sucrose aka sugar is half glucose, half fructose. Fructose part causes for example NAFLD by converting into saturated fat in the liver. Same as eating excess saturated fat otherwise. Alcohol does the same.
And the glucose derived from fat via gluconeogenesis.
Inb4 some vegtard talks about the brain requiring glucose.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Humans don't get any glucose from fat. Catabolizing existing muscle and tissue such as kidneys and lungs is the only way. >The existence of the glyoxylate cycle in humans has not been established, and it is widely held that fatty acids cannot be converted to glucose in humans directly. Carbon-14 has been shown to end up in glucose when it is supplied in fatty acids,[18] but this can be expected from the incorporation of labelled atoms derived from acetyl-CoA into citric acid cycle intermediates which are interchangeable with those derived from other physiological sources, such as glucogenic amino acids.[15] In the absence of other glucogenic sources, the 2-carbon acetyl-CoA derived from the oxidation of fatty acids cannot produce a net yield of glucose via the citric acid cycle, since an equivalent two carbon atoms are released as carbon dioxide during the cycle. During ketosis, however, acetyl-CoA from fatty acids yields ketone bodies, including acetone, and up to ~60% of acetone may be oxidized in the liver to the pyruvate precursors acetol and methylglyoxal.[19][4] Thus ketone bodies derived from fatty acids could account for up to 11% of gluconeogenesis during starvation. Catabolism of fatty acids also produces energy in the form of ATP that is necessary for the gluconeogenesis pathway.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Catabolizing a pound of lean tissue a day to feed your brain. How much fucking meat you need to eat each day if that were the case? Fuck me. How to people on high fat low protein diets survive more than week? You really are a disingenuous cunt. Glycerol backbone of fats can be converted to glucose via gluconeogenesis. It is exactly how people on zero carbs fuel their brains.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Not pound, more like 50-100g a day of lean tissue converted to glucose suffices. Of course tradeoff of that starvation reflex is impaired cognition. And no you can't just eat more meat because that catabolizing effect doesn't happen in intestines. Only existing tissue is usable for gluconeogenesis. To make matters worse the need for glucose increases under exercise, leading to peculiar effect where people on low-carb lose more muscle mass on intense exercising than if they were couch potatoes.
https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/12/2/482 >Consistent with the majority of the studies [29,45,46], the EX-LC group demonstrated a significantly greater reduction in lean muscle mass (LMM) compared to the EX-CO group. >Additionally, reduced insulin levels caused by ketosis, are known to inhibit proteolysis and may have therefore caused a reduction in LMM [49].
2 months ago
Anonymous
>10-20 grams of protein are required to fuel 80% of our brain.
Very efficient. But no, people on keto get most of the glucose they need from the glycerol backbones of fats.
Legumes aren't some magic shit that suddenly makes vaganism viable. I eat them now so I wouldn't be replacing anything. How much fucking legumes do you have to eat to make that a significant portion of your caloric intake?
My people and our way of life includes hunting and fishing, but I have no issue with vegetarians or vegans honestly, only with authoritarian rich people and politicians who struggle against us over fishing rights and similar issues.
From a spiritual standpoint, I understand the principle of nonviolence towards all living things, and I can respect those who choose to live this way as this is an Indian practice from India.
It is also natural for the wolf or the eagle to hunt and eat animals, so it is not strange for humans to eat meat either if they choose. It's what evolved our large brains and gave us sapience.
It's when Western elites impose their arrogance on the common man that it conflicts with the people, such as with fishing rights and struggling to preserve a natural and balanced way of life. The pods and ze bugs are something relatively new but that is the same idea, or wealthy Hollywood types talking down to people who are struggling to afford food.
>The saving money bit is just plain not true.
What did you eat? Don't tell me you fell for the meat replacement shills and thought you have to replace every bit of meat with Beyond Meat etc. Meats, dairy and eggs are ludicruously pricier than grains and legumes.
i ate 2 months vegan and i stalled on my lifts. i eat beef and drink milk again and my numbers go up. when i reach my fitness goals, i eat vegan again.
>why
All the vegans that I've seen or talked to are either fat fucks or withered skellies. They look unhealthy and they're annoying as fuck. I don't want to follow in their footsteps or to be associated with them. >saves tons in food cost
Whatever you save in food cost now you will pay tenfold in medical bills later.
I think I'll pay the extra 2 bucks to eat some chicken liver and eggs so I can stay healthy instead of eating lentils all day like a peasant and then losing my teeth or getting osteoporosis in my fuckin 50's. >eliminates several diseases
Interesting source you got there.
>All the vegans that I've seen or talked to are either fat fucks or withered skellies. They look unhealthy and they're annoying as fuck. I don't want to follow in their footsteps or to be associated with them.
like most normies
>Whatever you save in food cost now you will pay tenfold in medical bills later.
I think I'll pay the extra 2 bucks to eat some chicken liver and eggs so I can stay healthy instead of eating lentils all day like a peasant and then losing my teeth or getting osteoporosis in my fuckin 50's.
simply not true 4 pounds of beans is like a buck
>Interesting source you got there.
cholesterol clogs your arteries and heme iron gives you cancer you literally reduce mortality rate by being vegan
>like most normies
More than most normies. >simply not true 4 pounds of beans is like a buck
You didn't even read my comment, did you? Fucking gay. >cholesterol clogs your arteries and heme iron gives you cancer you literally reduce mortality rate by being vegan
Interesting source you got there, shill.
>cholesterol clogs your arteries
No causal evidence to support the claim that dietary cholesterol raises blood cholesterol. Nor is there any causal evidence to suggest that a high level of cholesterol in the blood leads to long-term negative health outcomes of any statistical significance. Every single study in nutrition science can only infer on correlation. Even the epidemiological meta-analyses that make correlative statements about health have high R^2 values and low differences in absolute risk to such a degree that they should be dismissed as being drowned out by the innumerable confounding variables that correlative studies are vulnerable to.
Humans have been eating meat for millions of years. Millions of years of selective pressure have made meat an essential part of the human diet for health and, up until we have been able to make B12 supplements, to survive.
>Millions of years of selective pressure have made meat an essential part of the human diet for health
More like humans evolved to tolerate abnormally high quantities of it until breeding age.compared to other primates that stayed in jungle. It's not essential, it's harmful and anti-human. As I said, no study exists saying eating it boosts any human health metric. That's a fact.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Any human that didn't eat meat would be dead within a year of stopping due to b12 deficiency. Millions of years of ice hunting have made humans specifically adapted to requiring significant amounts of animal protein in their diet.No studies exist that can infer on hard health outcomes for any diet.
2 months ago
Anonymous
It does not matter one bit what they are or is not fed in farming conditions. As animals in the wild, they would have been a source of b12 for humans .
>Any human that didn't eat meat would be dead within a year of stopping due to b12 deficiency. >As animals in the wild, they would have been a source of b12 for humans .
Humans in wild get B12 from water and soil just like other animals.
>Millions of years of ice hunting have made humans specifically adapted to requiring significant amounts of animal protein in their diet.
Homo Sapiens is less than a million year old species and the last ice age's glacial maximum covering half Europe you see on pictures only lasted 10 000 years and no human lived on the continental ice shelf itself but on its outskirts. Get at least your basic evolutionary and geological history right.
>No studies exist that can infer on hard health outcomes for any diet.
Of course they do unless you try to weasel out of them by putting unreasonably high demands on what you accept as "hard health outcome"
>It does not matter one bit what they are or is not fed in farming conditions
It does matter for like 99% of meat eating humans.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>Humans in wild get B12 from water and soil just like other animals.
No, they don't, complete and utter horse shit.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Yes we do. We don't magically stop absorbing B12 if it comes to our intestines from unspecified source.
Holy shit kys you lying scum vegan gay.
Where was the lie? Are you upset? You convert only existing muscle to glucose in absence of it, end of story.
>saves tons in food cost
Can I get 35000 calories, 2 adults averaging 2500 cal for a week, worth of food for significantly less than $120?
I guess I could just gorge myself on rice and beans but is that really that healthy?
Yes. Yes. But I recommend at least using something little different than just rice & beans like potatoes & peas for variety. Might push you out of budget tho.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>Yes we do. We don't magically stop absorbing B12 if it comes to our intestines from unspecified source.
Please stop taking your B12 supps and go get all your b12 from the dirt. I am sure you will be fine.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>You convert only existing muscle to glucose in absence of it, end of story.
nope, end of story,
>cholesterol clogs your arteries
No causal evidence to support the claim that dietary cholesterol raises blood cholesterol. Nor is there any causal evidence to suggest that a high level of cholesterol in the blood leads to long-term negative health outcomes of any statistical significance. Every single study in nutrition science can only infer on correlation. Even the epidemiological meta-analyses that make correlative statements about health have high R^2 values and low differences in absolute risk to such a degree that they should be dismissed as being drowned out by the innumerable confounding variables that correlative studies are vulnerable to.
>No causal evidence to support the claim that dietary cholesterol raises blood cholesterol
Here's just one of hundreds of those, it's a RTC measuring acute blood cholesterol level changes between two diets
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0021915002004240 >The type of diet significantly affected LDL cholesterol and triacylglycerol content, which was higher with the SFA diet and lower with the MUFA diet. The changes between the two diets were statistically significant for cholesterol (P<0.01) and triacylglycerol (P<0.03).
Chickens eat bugs. Pigs eat bugs, small mammals, and lizards. Idiot.
Chickens and pigs are not fed bugs, small mammals, and lizards in their feed.
My body uses ketones for energy, gay.
To some extent. Your brain will never run on ketones alone.
2 months ago
Anonymous
It does not matter one bit what they are or is not fed in farming conditions. As animals in the wild, they would have been a source of b12 for humans .
2 months ago
Anonymous
>You're certainly illiterate.
It is saying saturated fat raises LDL cholesterol. Nothing about dietary cholesterol.
2 months ago
Anonymous
>Chickens and pigs are not fed bugs, small mammals, and lizards in their feed.
They don't need to be. If they're outside like they should be, they'll catch those things themselves and eat them. Chickens will even catch mice and eat them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXjQh_bqtIM
2 months ago
Anonymous
I've said repeatedly that we are talking about how vast majority of livestock fed to humans is fed and supplemented, and that doesn't involve animals being outside in their natural state, or livestock being fed feed that has bugs, small mammals, and lizards. Bonemeal they get in their feed comes from milled nonedible carcasses of other livestock. That's their tiny source of B12. Other than that they are supplemented with it. And the pulverized carcasses in their feed were also supplemented with it.
>saves tons in food cost
Can I get 35000 calories, 2 adults averaging 2500 cal for a week, worth of food for significantly less than $120?
I guess I could just gorge myself on rice and beans but is that really that healthy?
Alright IST, hear me out.
I don't like animal suffering and I want to minimize it. The meat industry is corrupt as fuck and regulations regarding animal welfare are not applied 95% of the time. Don't try to deny it, I know my shit. The question is: is the alternative that much better? Plant-based food requires more area to be produced, meaning more oil and pesticides. Leather shoes are exhanged for synthetic shoes; you basically exchange natural resources for plastic, which is worse; not to mention, these shoes were probably made in a shady sweatshop somewhere in Southeast Asia, so you basically replace animal suffering with human suffering.
I already don't eat land animal meat, but I'm not sure whether I should stop eating fish and dairy as well. Should I come back to meat?
I won't debate anyone, I just want opinions.
You are struggling to find human moralization for eating meat, when you could just adopt a religion that condones eating meat, such as the Abrahamic religions.
I said I wouldn't debate, but I need to ask
If God is real, why would I want to disrespect His creation by causing it pain, or at least consciously contributing to it by giving it my money? I know that according to Abrahamic theology animals were created with the sole purpose of serving us, but wouldn't it be better to let go of that privilege of being served in order to honor His creation even more, St. Francis style?
>If God is real, why would I want to disrespect His creation by causing it pain
There's so many counter-arguments to the points you raise. But I will keep it short. >eating meat the natural way of life >minimizing human suffering is more important than minimizing animal suffering. Pro-Tip: Chickens are barely conscious, hardly worse than killing a bug. >God knows and you do not know. >Meat eating abrahamic cults have conquered the world, rather than vegan cults, which says something about how it is proven to work
>wouldn't it be better to let go of that privilege of being served in order to honor His creation even more >Manu 5.56. There is no sin in eating meat, in spirituous liquor, and in carnal intercourse, for that is the natural way of created beings, but abstention brings great rewards.
So basically, if you want to make an ascetic religious practice out of veganism, go right ahead, but stop trying to moralize others from eating their natural diet.
>I know that according to Abrahamic theology animals were created with the sole purpose of serving us, but wouldn't it be better to let go of that privilege of being served in order to honor His creation even more, St. Francis style? >Why would I forgo ancient scripture and the fundamental rules of my religion in order to fit it based to a woke new lifestyle that has existed for all of 30 years?
gee, you tell me
Im vegetarian and i even make jokes with my friends that eat meat about vegetatrian and vegans.Mostly vegan tho. Im fine its just a preference, i dont even call myself vegetarian usally, i just dont want to eat meat and fish because of the taste and somewhat personall disgust, thats all albout it. I support carnivore, vegan. And if you eat meat enjoy it and dont let anyone tell you thats wrong, humans eat meat for 10000 years already.
Tribalism. If the liberals do it, I won't.
If liberals drink water, I'll drink beer.
If liberals drive electric cars, I'll drive my truck.
If liberals drive on the right side, I'll drive on the left.
If liberals eat veggies, I'll eat meat.
To become the best I can be.
Both are wrong. Veganism is one of the most retarded "diets". Avoiding lean meat, fish, eggs, and yoghurt only makes you weaker and less healthy. And you can eat donuts, chips, and other seed oil laden flour shit all day while still eating "vegan". Eating more vegetables and less processed food is good, but it has nothing to do with avoiding unprocessed animal foods.
>Avoiding lean meat, fish, eggs, and yoghurt only makes you weaker and less healthy.
[citation needed]
I have never seen a single study saying any of those improves health in any way.
>https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15927927/#:~:text=Lean%20red%20meat%20is%20also,levels%20or%20thrombotic%20risk%20factors).
It's not saying eating expensive animal junk improves heart health. Try again.
>Shifting the goalposts this much.
Gee, it looks like your brain isn't functioning too well. I wonder why... Surely it couldn't be nutritional deficiencies from a subhuman diet could it...? A lack of essential vitamins, minerals and protein surely couldn't affect brain function that much could it...?
>Shifting the goalposts this much.
I specifically asked
>I have never seen a single study saying any of those improves health in any way.
>improves health
And the best you could do is provide something that said
>lean red meat, trimmed of visible fat, which is consumed in a diet low in saturated fat does not increase cardiovascular risk factors
>does not increase
Not reducing it either.
>Lean red meat is also a good source of protein, omega-3 fatty acids, vitamin B12, niacin, zinc and iron
I understand that subhumans like yourself think that such nutrients do not improve one's health (after all, without them you very nearly resemble the cognitive abilities of an adolescent), but in any case, you absolutely did shift goalposts by changing "health" to specifically "heart health", and moreover initially shifted the goalposts as the guy you originally replied to said that avoiding those foods is a detriment to health, but now your demanding to see that consuming those foods is a benefit to heart health (compared to normal) - a claim which is hardly possible to prove as the norm is eating such foods.
Yes meat is a good source of those (if the livestock has been supplemented with B12, which it usually is, like how dairy is injected with vitamin D before shipping it to markets). So are most plants humans regularly eat rich in those. For B12 you just need a supplement directly. High meat eaters are in fact more likely to miss several micronutrients than vegans.
>vegan products will be imported from overseas, which is more environmentally (and climate if you believe in that) unfriendly than local animal produce
No they won't. You really think vegans only eat durians and coconuts or what?
It's a chronic condition. Likewise you could ask why people popping antidepressants are depressed if the pills cure it. They don't cure it, only alleviates it.
so if meat causes so much inflammation and disease why is it that you people are more depressed? either depressed people are drawn to a vegan diet, or it causes it, pick one.
how can you be happy when you know psycho normies kill poor baby animals and wouldnt stop
See
&
so yes
>depressed people are drawn to a vegan diet
is the correct answer. kinda same as why anxiety disordered self-medicate with weed.
can you prove that depressed people are drawn to a vegan diet?
I doubt I can, but I can prove that SFA aka propionates produced in colon from fiber are causal to increasing serotonin in brain. Been known for a long time.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0141813020353381
>The in-depth mechanism studies indicated that the gut microbiota could improve the depression symptom through the gut-brain axis (GBA). As unique plant polysaccharides, dietary fiber can effectively modulate the intestinal flora disorders and its crucial role in orchestrating host-microbiota crosstalk has been confirmed. This review highlights the mechanisms that the gut microbiota affects the development of depression through GBA and focuses on dietary fiber intervention on the improvement of intestinal microbiota imbalance, which may provide new ideas for the prevention and treatment of depression.
how tf are vegans more depressed? there's no way that's true i was the happiest i ever was in my life when i became vegan even still being an incel
don't care, i have trouble digesting meats and sick of it making me horny for no reason
[citation needed]
Every single one of those claims requires multiple studies. You can't just spout random shit and expect any reasonable person to believe you.
>We conclude that there are dietary inadequacies in all dietary groups. In people following self-selected plant-based diets, especially vegan diets, intake, and status of certain nutrients is lower compared to meat-containing diets, with an increased risk of inadequacy for vitamin B12, vitamin D, EPA, DHA, calcium, iron (particularly in women), zinc and iodine. Of these nutrients, also meat-eaters were found to be at risk of inadequate vitamin D and calcium intake.
>On the other hand, people following plant-based diets, particularly vegan diets, had higher intakes of PUFA, ALA, fiber, folate, vitamin E and magnesium, which were found to be at risk of inadequacy among meat-eaters.
>Additionally, the intake of vitamin B1, B6 and C was considerably higher, especially in vegans.
https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/14/1/29
Vegans beat meat eaters - that is all groups of meat eaters - in nutrition intake adequacy 12 to 8 micronutrients with rest being about equal.
>inb4 I don't accept this study on vague reasons
Livestock doesn't need to be supplemented with b12 you disingenuous cunt. All ruminants can synthesize their own b12 in their gut. The only reason why a cow 'may' need a cobalt lick is because it grain fed living in feedlots, which is not the ideal way raise to raise cattle in the first place.
Yes they do unless they live completely outside where they eat the soil with bacteria that is actually producing B12. Another form of cattle supplementing is adding cobalt to their feed, sure.
>All ruminants can synthesize their own b12 in their gut
Livestock mostly consists of non-ruminant chicken and pigs that definitely need supplementation unless again living completely outside licking dirt.
>chicken and pigs that definitely need supplementation
They are omnivores, they get their b12 from animal protein just like we do. Fucking retard.
And where does the animal protein come from again? Oh yeah mostly chicken and pigs.
Chickens eat bugs. Pigs eat bugs, small mammals, and lizards. Idiot.
So, if someone is 15% predisposed to a certain condition, and a diet increases the risk by 50%, is the actual risk 65% or 22.5%? This is how so many people were bullied into taking statins instead of just eating normal, unprocessed food of all types.
>I need a study citation to prove some of the most nutrient dense calorie efficient foods on the planet are healthy
Holy fuck some of you on this board are something else
No such study exists and meat is not even nutritious, nonvegans are more deficient and at higher risk of deficinencies than vegans see
The real reason why none of you directly answers with a study showing how eating meat improves any health metric in humans is because no such thing exist. 100% of evidence ever produced indicates that meat is bad for you.
Put down your phone and get back to the gloryhole. Your break is up
Veganism is not inherently unhealthy, but it can make getting a balanced diet difficult. I see it as a handicap. Yes you can eat a high protein vegan diet and stay under/over a calorie threshold, but it's going to be so much harder than eating animal products.
It's like playing dark souls. Yes you can beat the entire game with a ladle, but it's going to be unnecessarily difficult and are you really going to have a good time?
>Yes you can eat a high protein vegan diet and stay under/over a calorie threshold, but it's going to be so much harder than eating animal products.
I'm curious why you think it's harder.
it just is dont ask why
Because to get a complete amino acid profile you need to eat combinations of foods instead of just getting it from one source. You also need to eat more volume to get the same protein. Tofu has 1/4 less protein than chicken breast at only half the calories. So to eat an equal amount of protein with just tofu, you would need to eat 4x more, and you would have eaten twice as many calories. Again, it's possible, just harder than eating a meat based diet.
>Veganism is not inherently unhealthy
it is. hitting all targets on chronometer doesn't mean your body actually absorbs and can make use of those nutrients. there is far too much inter-individual variability to make a blanket statement like "veganism isn't unhealthy". yes, some people may do okay, and a few could even do great, but there are still a lot of people who do (a lot) worse even if they "do it right".
also, we still know way too little about the human body, nutrition, or the complexity of food and its interaction with the body.
>Give up apex predator status
>Body deteriorates
Who would have thought?
>meat is healthy
>but only if its lean
>Causes numerous other diseases
>Feel like shit all the time
>Looks sickly
I don't fucken know
>Causes numerous other diseases
Such as?
>Feel like shit all the time
I don't, been at this for 3 years, best I've ever been
>Looks sickly
I don't and neither do most known long-term vegans like Moby and Joaquin Phoenix
Post body
Here's Jared Leto instead
He looks alright but i am aiming to be heavier and stronger, sorry vegantard, but this won’t do
Jared Let is mentally ill, like I said post body fatty
The first 30s to mars album was so based they clubbed him in the head and had to brainwash him into being a puppet.
Thats how he went from space fascism to shitty love songs so fast and why he seems so unhinged
>The first 30s to mars album was so based they-
Time to move on from elementary school, gay.
Maybe grow up and move out of your mom's basement? Christ. Listen to real music you tasteless gay.
He'll have a personal chef, trainer and nutritionist, making meals with the highest quality ingredients
If I go even one day without animal products, or if I eat any non-animal products, I feel weak, so I'm just not gonna go vegan!!! Sorry!!!!!
is this some kind of fallacy? appeal to celebrity
look at these has-beens!
look at the morbin time guy with NPD!
FOH
I just dont want to, dont need any other reason
My current diet has been very successful for my health & fitness and it contains many foods that I really enjoy. No reason to change.
Dont even bother. Your shilling doesnt work here. Go back to crying on r/vegan
Unhealthy, environmentally bad, expensive and trash.
All of those are wrong. No idea where you got those lies from.
Correlation is not causation. Vegan diet is causally linked to reducing depression via increased production of propionates which boosts serotonin. It is a self-medication remedy for those suffering from those ailments. I know, I'm one of the sad socks. Had a hikky phase even. You either go (high-fiber) vegan or you pop the antidepressants to alleviate depression with all their side-effects like 13% of Americans do.
Unless I only eat locally harvested veggies then vegan products will be imported from overseas, which is more environmentally (and climate if you believe in that) unfriendly than local animal produce.
The vegan options also lack the necessary vitamins and nutrients with only local vegetables making imported wares the only option. It's also very expensive because of this.
if it stops depression why are most vegans depressed
>vegetarian
probably because of the dairy
Vegans always seem like they’re trying to pitch their ideology - like they’re trying to make a sale or something. I don’t trust those kinds of people.
if I were to go vegan I'd basically replace meat, fish and eggs with ~~*grains*~~ and ~~*sugar*~~. Could you shine some light on the benefits of that trade off?
Whole grains are a great source of nutrition. Not sure why anyone would replace meat with sugar instead of legumes. Can you explain?
Grains=saccharides=sugar.
Is your brain lacking function again, vegan? I guess it's tough being so lacking in essential nutrients that your cognition is permanently impaired. Don't worry though, I'm sure the government will recognize your disability and give you the support you need.
You're very confused.
Grains are starch which is chained glucose, which is the primary energy source of your body. In absence of glucose your body will catabolize existing muscle tissue to get it.
Sucrose aka sugar is half glucose, half fructose. Fructose part causes for example NAFLD by converting into saturated fat in the liver. Same as eating excess saturated fat otherwise. Alcohol does the same.
Who confused you?
My body uses ketones for energy, gay.
And the glucose derived from fat via gluconeogenesis.
Inb4 some vegtard talks about the brain requiring glucose.
Humans don't get any glucose from fat. Catabolizing existing muscle and tissue such as kidneys and lungs is the only way.
>The existence of the glyoxylate cycle in humans has not been established, and it is widely held that fatty acids cannot be converted to glucose in humans directly. Carbon-14 has been shown to end up in glucose when it is supplied in fatty acids,[18] but this can be expected from the incorporation of labelled atoms derived from acetyl-CoA into citric acid cycle intermediates which are interchangeable with those derived from other physiological sources, such as glucogenic amino acids.[15] In the absence of other glucogenic sources, the 2-carbon acetyl-CoA derived from the oxidation of fatty acids cannot produce a net yield of glucose via the citric acid cycle, since an equivalent two carbon atoms are released as carbon dioxide during the cycle. During ketosis, however, acetyl-CoA from fatty acids yields ketone bodies, including acetone, and up to ~60% of acetone may be oxidized in the liver to the pyruvate precursors acetol and methylglyoxal.[19][4] Thus ketone bodies derived from fatty acids could account for up to 11% of gluconeogenesis during starvation. Catabolism of fatty acids also produces energy in the form of ATP that is necessary for the gluconeogenesis pathway.
Catabolizing a pound of lean tissue a day to feed your brain. How much fucking meat you need to eat each day if that were the case? Fuck me. How to people on high fat low protein diets survive more than week? You really are a disingenuous cunt. Glycerol backbone of fats can be converted to glucose via gluconeogenesis. It is exactly how people on zero carbs fuel their brains.
Not pound, more like 50-100g a day of lean tissue converted to glucose suffices. Of course tradeoff of that starvation reflex is impaired cognition. And no you can't just eat more meat because that catabolizing effect doesn't happen in intestines. Only existing tissue is usable for gluconeogenesis. To make matters worse the need for glucose increases under exercise, leading to peculiar effect where people on low-carb lose more muscle mass on intense exercising than if they were couch potatoes.
https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/12/2/482
>Consistent with the majority of the studies [29,45,46], the EX-LC group demonstrated a significantly greater reduction in lean muscle mass (LMM) compared to the EX-CO group.
>Additionally, reduced insulin levels caused by ketosis, are known to inhibit proteolysis and may have therefore caused a reduction in LMM [49].
>10-20 grams of protein are required to fuel 80% of our brain.
Very efficient. But no, people on keto get most of the glucose they need from the glycerol backbones of fats.
Holy shit kys you lying scum vegan gay.
those are the most calorically dense foods and both are nutrient deficient and are big contributers to civilizational illnesses
You didn't answer why would anyone replace meat with sugar instead of legumes. It's just stupid. Strawman much?
Legumes aren't some magic shit that suddenly makes vaganism viable. I eat them now so I wouldn't be replacing anything. How much fucking legumes do you have to eat to make that a significant portion of your caloric intake?
My people and our way of life includes hunting and fishing, but I have no issue with vegetarians or vegans honestly, only with authoritarian rich people and politicians who struggle against us over fishing rights and similar issues.
From a spiritual standpoint, I understand the principle of nonviolence towards all living things, and I can respect those who choose to live this way as this is an Indian practice from India.
It is also natural for the wolf or the eagle to hunt and eat animals, so it is not strange for humans to eat meat either if they choose. It's what evolved our large brains and gave us sapience.
It's when Western elites impose their arrogance on the common man that it conflicts with the people, such as with fishing rights and struggling to preserve a natural and balanced way of life. The pods and ze bugs are something relatively new but that is the same idea, or wealthy Hollywood types talking down to people who are struggling to afford food.
I've tried to go vegan a couple times actually.
The saving money bit is just plain not true.
But more importantly, I felt like absolute shit.
>The saving money bit is just plain not true.
What did you eat? Don't tell me you fell for the meat replacement shills and thought you have to replace every bit of meat with Beyond Meat etc. Meats, dairy and eggs are ludicruously pricier than grains and legumes.
i ate 2 months vegan and i stalled on my lifts. i eat beef and drink milk again and my numbers go up. when i reach my fitness goals, i eat vegan again.
>so why don't you?
don't feel like it. I'm not diseased nor hurting for money anyway
i am vegan, it's super cool and i get to save the animals 🙂 2023 year of the green wave
Oh wow a roidchud.
Oh great, the redditors have arrived.
Shove a turnip up your ass you retarded tofu sprout.
nthpbp
>why
All the vegans that I've seen or talked to are either fat fucks or withered skellies. They look unhealthy and they're annoying as fuck. I don't want to follow in their footsteps or to be associated with them.
>saves tons in food cost
Whatever you save in food cost now you will pay tenfold in medical bills later.
I think I'll pay the extra 2 bucks to eat some chicken liver and eggs so I can stay healthy instead of eating lentils all day like a peasant and then losing my teeth or getting osteoporosis in my fuckin 50's.
>eliminates several diseases
Interesting source you got there.
>All the vegans that I've seen or talked to are either fat fucks or withered skellies. They look unhealthy and they're annoying as fuck. I don't want to follow in their footsteps or to be associated with them.
like most normies
>Whatever you save in food cost now you will pay tenfold in medical bills later.
I think I'll pay the extra 2 bucks to eat some chicken liver and eggs so I can stay healthy instead of eating lentils all day like a peasant and then losing my teeth or getting osteoporosis in my fuckin 50's.
simply not true 4 pounds of beans is like a buck
>Interesting source you got there.
cholesterol clogs your arteries and heme iron gives you cancer you literally reduce mortality rate by being vegan
>like most normies
More than most normies.
>simply not true 4 pounds of beans is like a buck
You didn't even read my comment, did you? Fucking gay.
>cholesterol clogs your arteries and heme iron gives you cancer you literally reduce mortality rate by being vegan
Interesting source you got there, shill.
>s-stop telling me my addiction is bad
I accept your concession.
Now go eat your söy broth, peasant.
Humans have been eating meat for millions of years. Millions of years of selective pressure have made meat an essential part of the human diet for health and, up until we have been able to make B12 supplements, to survive.
>Millions of years of selective pressure have made meat an essential part of the human diet for health
More like humans evolved to tolerate abnormally high quantities of it until breeding age.compared to other primates that stayed in jungle. It's not essential, it's harmful and anti-human. As I said, no study exists saying eating it boosts any human health metric. That's a fact.
Any human that didn't eat meat would be dead within a year of stopping due to b12 deficiency. Millions of years of ice hunting have made humans specifically adapted to requiring significant amounts of animal protein in their diet.No studies exist that can infer on hard health outcomes for any diet.
>Any human that didn't eat meat would be dead within a year of stopping due to b12 deficiency.
>As animals in the wild, they would have been a source of b12 for humans .
Humans in wild get B12 from water and soil just like other animals.
>Millions of years of ice hunting have made humans specifically adapted to requiring significant amounts of animal protein in their diet.
Homo Sapiens is less than a million year old species and the last ice age's glacial maximum covering half Europe you see on pictures only lasted 10 000 years and no human lived on the continental ice shelf itself but on its outskirts. Get at least your basic evolutionary and geological history right.
>No studies exist that can infer on hard health outcomes for any diet.
Of course they do unless you try to weasel out of them by putting unreasonably high demands on what you accept as "hard health outcome"
>It does not matter one bit what they are or is not fed in farming conditions
It does matter for like 99% of meat eating humans.
>Humans in wild get B12 from water and soil just like other animals.
No, they don't, complete and utter horse shit.
Yes we do. We don't magically stop absorbing B12 if it comes to our intestines from unspecified source.
Where was the lie? Are you upset? You convert only existing muscle to glucose in absence of it, end of story.
Yes. Yes. But I recommend at least using something little different than just rice & beans like potatoes & peas for variety. Might push you out of budget tho.
>Yes we do. We don't magically stop absorbing B12 if it comes to our intestines from unspecified source.
Please stop taking your B12 supps and go get all your b12 from the dirt. I am sure you will be fine.
>You convert only existing muscle to glucose in absence of it, end of story.
nope, end of story,
>cholesterol clogs your arteries
No causal evidence to support the claim that dietary cholesterol raises blood cholesterol. Nor is there any causal evidence to suggest that a high level of cholesterol in the blood leads to long-term negative health outcomes of any statistical significance. Every single study in nutrition science can only infer on correlation. Even the epidemiological meta-analyses that make correlative statements about health have high R^2 values and low differences in absolute risk to such a degree that they should be dismissed as being drowned out by the innumerable confounding variables that correlative studies are vulnerable to.
>No causal evidence to support the claim that dietary cholesterol raises blood cholesterol
Here's just one of hundreds of those, it's a RTC measuring acute blood cholesterol level changes between two diets
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0021915002004240
>The type of diet significantly affected LDL cholesterol and triacylglycerol content, which was higher with the SFA diet and lower with the MUFA diet. The changes between the two diets were statistically significant for cholesterol (P<0.01) and triacylglycerol (P<0.03).
Study has nothing to do with dietary cholesterol.
You're certainly illiterate.
Chickens and pigs are not fed bugs, small mammals, and lizards in their feed.
To some extent. Your brain will never run on ketones alone.
It does not matter one bit what they are or is not fed in farming conditions. As animals in the wild, they would have been a source of b12 for humans .
>You're certainly illiterate.
It is saying saturated fat raises LDL cholesterol. Nothing about dietary cholesterol.
>Chickens and pigs are not fed bugs, small mammals, and lizards in their feed.
They don't need to be. If they're outside like they should be, they'll catch those things themselves and eat them. Chickens will even catch mice and eat them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXjQh_bqtIM
I've said repeatedly that we are talking about how vast majority of livestock fed to humans is fed and supplemented, and that doesn't involve animals being outside in their natural state, or livestock being fed feed that has bugs, small mammals, and lizards. Bonemeal they get in their feed comes from milled nonedible carcasses of other livestock. That's their tiny source of B12. Other than that they are supplemented with it. And the pulverized carcasses in their feed were also supplemented with it.
I don't want to and you can't make me. Deal with it, gay
>saves tons in food cost
Can I get 35000 calories, 2 adults averaging 2500 cal for a week, worth of food for significantly less than $120?
I guess I could just gorge myself on rice and beans but is that really that healthy?
>Can I get 35000 calories, 2 adults averaging 2500 cal for a week, worth of food for significantly less than $120?
if you eat bugs
handful of peanuts is like 800kcal
several diseases
maybe if you consider muscle hypertrophy a disease
I refuse to be a vegetarian or a vegan because I want my diet to cause animal suffering.
ni hao chang
tons in food cost
No
>eliminates several diseases
Lol, lmao even
I get my nutrition advice from Nicado Avocado
i dont wanna
Alright IST, hear me out.
I don't like animal suffering and I want to minimize it. The meat industry is corrupt as fuck and regulations regarding animal welfare are not applied 95% of the time. Don't try to deny it, I know my shit. The question is: is the alternative that much better? Plant-based food requires more area to be produced, meaning more oil and pesticides. Leather shoes are exhanged for synthetic shoes; you basically exchange natural resources for plastic, which is worse; not to mention, these shoes were probably made in a shady sweatshop somewhere in Southeast Asia, so you basically replace animal suffering with human suffering.
I already don't eat land animal meat, but I'm not sure whether I should stop eating fish and dairy as well. Should I come back to meat?
I won't debate anyone, I just want opinions.
You are struggling to find human moralization for eating meat, when you could just adopt a religion that condones eating meat, such as the Abrahamic religions.
I said I wouldn't debate, but I need to ask
If God is real, why would I want to disrespect His creation by causing it pain, or at least consciously contributing to it by giving it my money? I know that according to Abrahamic theology animals were created with the sole purpose of serving us, but wouldn't it be better to let go of that privilege of being served in order to honor His creation even more, St. Francis style?
>If God is real, why would I want to disrespect His creation by causing it pain
There's so many counter-arguments to the points you raise. But I will keep it short.
>eating meat the natural way of life
>minimizing human suffering is more important than minimizing animal suffering. Pro-Tip: Chickens are barely conscious, hardly worse than killing a bug.
>God knows and you do not know.
>Meat eating abrahamic cults have conquered the world, rather than vegan cults, which says something about how it is proven to work
>wouldn't it be better to let go of that privilege of being served in order to honor His creation even more
>Manu 5.56. There is no sin in eating meat, in spirituous liquor, and in carnal intercourse, for that is the natural way of created beings, but abstention brings great rewards.
So basically, if you want to make an ascetic religious practice out of veganism, go right ahead, but stop trying to moralize others from eating their natural diet.
>I know that according to Abrahamic theology animals were created with the sole purpose of serving us, but wouldn't it be better to let go of that privilege of being served in order to honor His creation even more, St. Francis style?
>Why would I forgo ancient scripture and the fundamental rules of my religion in order to fit it based to a woke new lifestyle that has existed for all of 30 years?
gee, you tell me
meat is tasty
Im vegetarian and i even make jokes with my friends that eat meat about vegetatrian and vegans.Mostly vegan tho. Im fine its just a preference, i dont even call myself vegetarian usally, i just dont want to eat meat and fish because of the taste and somewhat personall disgust, thats all albout it. I support carnivore, vegan. And if you eat meat enjoy it and dont let anyone tell you thats wrong, humans eat meat for 10000 years already.
Cause vegans are fags.
Simpo as.
Vegetables dont grow in the winter. City freak.
Because I enjoy meat and dairy and eggs. Simple as that.
Fun fact: Most vegans are women.
More fun facts: Most vegans revert back to their original diets. There are more ex-vegans than vegans.
Tribalism. If the liberals do it, I won't.
If liberals drink water, I'll drink beer.
If liberals drive electric cars, I'll drive my truck.
If liberals drive on the right side, I'll drive on the left.
If liberals eat veggies, I'll eat meat.
How many jabs did you get?