alcohol is good for you
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alcohol is good for you
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Very well
So like 2 grams of alcohol a day is good for you?
It's basically an aspirin
>Likes: alcohol, breasts
>Dislikes: black "people", women
yes
brainlet
i don't believe any studies that are specific to sports/exercise
>brainlet
exacerbate or dtfu
>i don't believe
Irrelevant
>relative risk of total mortality
>g/d
what the frick are these units?
gains per death, obviously
so you tellin me i get 10 gains/death off 1 drink at an 80% relative risk of total mortality?
You are all fricking stupid. This study doesn't mean that alcohol actually makes you healthier or some shit. It simply means that USUALLY people who don't drink AT ALL are lonely losers and they usually have a higher risk chance of death.
People drinking moderate amounts are usually social and happier and that makes them live longer.
>It simply means that USUALLY people who don't drink AT ALL are lonely losers and they usually have a higher risk chance of death.
Speculation.
I believe that the dangers of alcohol are vastly overstated. Of course chronic excessive consumption is bad for you (as is excess of rich foods, of drugs, of many other things), but it doesn't necessarily follow that because a lot of alcohol is bad for youe health that a small or moderate amount of alcohol is also bad for your health.
Many substances can be beneficial to our health in small doses but harmful in higher doses. Why should alcohol be any different? Humans have evolved a radically different form of alcohol dehydrogenase, the first enzyme involved in alcohol metabolism, compared to our closest great ape relatives. This gave us a significant advantage when our ancestors left the trees to live on the ground, being able to forage fermented fallen fruits. It's an excellent energy source, very dense - about 7kcal per gram of ethanol (compared to 4kcal per gram from carbohydrate)
Alcohol is our friend, in small doses.
>Speculation.
>I believe
>Speculation.
>I believe that the dangers of alcohol are vastly overstated
You seriously cannot think that. It is literal poison, it's a chemical solvent that will literally kill you if you take it too much.
Hormesis or whatever. Nearly all plant foods contain some toxin or anti nutrients
Yes. The anon I replied to was speculating about what the results of that study (though he framed it as fact).
I'm equally entitled to my own speculation, but I freely admit it's just what I believe.
Water is also a chemical solvent anon, and a much more potent one than ethanol. Salt and water are essential for life, but taking too much of those will kill you too.
Many lifesaving drugs will kill you if you take too much - there is not always as clear a distinction between "medicine" and "poison" as you may think.
Digitalis (foxglove) is an incredibly potent drug/toxin used to treat heart conditions. At the right dose, it can normalise heartbeat and educe blood pressure. Going even slightly above the correct dose for your bodyweight can lead to arrhythmia and death.
Is digitalis "only" a poison or "only" a medicine? It is neither - the dose makes the poison, as it is with alcohol.
It is incredibly difficult to ingest a lethal amount of alcohol without distilled spirits, a relatively recent invention in human history. It is virtually impossible to consume a lethal amount of alcohol from fermented fruits, the "natural" source of alcohol that our ancestors evolved to consume.
10-20g of ethanol daily is not going to have any measurable negative impact on your overall health.
Who drinks 1 pint of alcohol every day. I think thats bullshit for almost everyone who claims they do. Alcohol is addictive as shit and 1 pint doesnt even touch the sides even for non addicts. If you wanna feel buzzed and warm and sociable you need like 3. And then you wanna keep going. And this risks continues to increase the longer your alcohol career is
I doubt theres many 'just 1 and ill be fine for the next 4 days' people in their 40s.
>Alcohol is addictive as shit
I am perfectly capable of having a single glass of wine or small bottle of beer with my dinner.
>I doubt theres many 'just 1 and ill be fine for the next 4 days' people in their 40s.
The study in OP shows a reduced risk of all cause mortality up to around 40g of ethanol DAILY, not weekly.
40g of ethanol is roughly 3 units of alcohol or 3 "standard" drinks.
The existence of addicts who abuse alcohol doesn't change the fact that you can safely consume a small-moderate amount regularly. Some people are addicted to rich, luxury foods like cakes, chocolates, candies, etc. That doesn't mean that other people can't consume these treats in a sensible, sustainable way that doesn't damage their health.
So is water, einstein
>Why should alcohol be any different?
because the world is nuanced. You want it to be simple 1s and 0s but answers in one field doesnt equate to answers in other fields.
>anon gives a nuanced answer about how "poison" exists on a gradient and alcohol may not be a univerally bad thing, highlighting that we evolved to digest it better than all other animals on earth
>hurr durr that's binary thinking
What did he mean by this?
Yeah, that's certainly possible, the curve is incredibly suspect. In a drinker society, the people who don't drink at all are likely antisocial incels, recovering alcoholics or both (me)
No, that isn't what it means at all. If you actually bother to read even the abstracts you would see that the benefits are mostly from phenols, antioxidants, etc.
Another brick head who can't read.
>be me
>at the gym pumping iron
>hear a goatlike shriek and look over
>pajeet wearing jeans and a nautica polo shirt has dropped dead from cardiac arrest whilst curling a 25lb bent grip barbell
>suddenly feel my gains increase like red orbs went into me in devil may cry
>"light weight baby"
Just got done with the gym and had a few shots of whiskey from my water bottle now I'm walking at the mall looking at scantily clad zoomer girls.
It hurts your gains worse than anything else tho
Id rather fricking die
I don't like studies like this because "drinks per day" is kind of bullshit. Drinks of what? Beer? Mixed? Wine?
What's piggybacking along with that alcohol matters. I could believe that 2 6 oz glasses of red wine a day is fine or beneficial, but there's no way that's true for margaritas or whisky sours.
corroborate or dtfu
>2 6 oz glasses of red wine a day
that's like 40-50 grams of ethanol. According to OP's graph the benefit is highest at like 5 grams a day then slowly increases mortality past that
1-2 drinks is a good amount because the downside is very low, and there is still individual variation. if you're 50 pounds heavier the 5 grams might do nothing
Stop being 50 pounds heavier, lardass.
some people are tall? hurr durr
Vertical fat cope
bro all alchohol that fricks you up is the same thing ethanol. thats it. theres no such thing as WHISKEY GETS ME FIGHTIN and RUM GETS ME HAPPY lol
Shhh IST is mostly morons
>bro tequila fricks me up
>wine relaxes me
>beer turns me into an extrovert
ahah yea exactly this. i fricking cringe when i hear ppl say that shit irl wtf
Why does wine give me a headache consistently
Of course not, no one said that and that's an idiotic assumption for you to make. My point was that it doesn't account for anything alongside that alcohol. No one in these studies is drinking straight grain ethanol, they are all consuming it in solution with some other shit. That other shit is important.
Take three clones. Both drink 25 grams of ethanol a day. One drinks it as two vodka sodas, the other drinks it as two stouts, the third as red wine. You're going to tell me the ONLY variable that has any impact is the total alcohol consumed?
splitting hairs
Sorry dumb dumb, but it isn't. Here are three studies indicating that the type of alcoholic drink does indeed impact health and longevity in different ways because of phenol content and other differences:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32709071/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22852062/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22852062/
You made a stupid assumption because you can't read particularly well, then made another stupid remark because you don't want to admit it, then got your wrongness shoved in your face.
No need to reply, you've dug enough of a hole for one night.
>assume he's talking to one person the whole time
schizo
>astrology tier beliefs
k
>citation (TM)
k onions guy
Don't worry little buddy, when you pass freshman English you'll have the basic reading skills to understand sentences. That's the good thing about being illiterate, there's nowhere to go but up!
you're the one that believes in magical properties of inert substances
are you a woman
Blind ignorance, idiotic assumptions, inability to admit a mistake when the evidence is black and white, childish deflection...if I were a raging femanon I would still have less estrogen than you.
Idk bro you got assraped it seems and are now butthurt.
reddit take
>noooo alcohol isn't optimal!
Yeah but alcohol makes you live longer
>relaxes you for heart gains (1-3 drinks a day)
>social gains (lonely people die sooner)
>it's fun (fun is important to stay motivated)
Sure, but I'm an alcoholic so it's never actually 1-2 drinks per day. And when you can get your happiness from a bottle, why do anything more than what you need to afford the next bottle?
Booze has powerful psychoactive effects, you can't discount those. Some people can cope, many can't. It's easier to cut it out entirely than to restrict yourself. I've gone from a fat NEET to a top 5% earner in decent shape simply by quitting booze.
Correlation, causation. These are old news. Turns out people who buy wine are wealthier, with healthier habits overall. It's not the alcohol that's healthy.
you know they ask a lot of seemingly irrelevant questions in these studies and apply multivariate analysis that would detect confounding if it existed.
youre a fricking braindead frick who should kill themselves
I too enjoy alcohol-lobbied studies stating alcohol is good for you with fancy statistics
Alcoholics will do anything to find a reason to not quit their addiction.
teetotalers will argue with a graph
>alcohol is good for you
uh.. bros?
We don't trust health organizations here; line graphs are all I need to see.
>the covid people
nah i'm good
I wonder what they think the safe level of staying indoors for 2 years and transferring ten trillion dollars to jeff bezos is
Red wine and brown spirits have polyphenols that are good for you.
so does coffee
>40 grams of alcohol a day
Thats 2 pints of lager a day.
I refuse to believe that anyone drinks that amount. I always assume people who say they enjoy 1-2 pints a day really mean they have 1-2 to 'enjoy' and then they binge 5 or 6 more several days a week but they never mention that part due to shame.
I commend anyone who really does have like 4 pints of alcohol a week but I assume most people who say they have a few pints a week really mean 20
I also forgot to mention 40 grams a day is where the risk levels off to if you dont drink at all
Literally nobody has like half a pint a day (10 grams). It would be torture for most people to have half a pint and leave it there. youll be thinking about getting more booze for the rest of the day
Or maybe im just an alcoholic. I need at least 4-5 pints in a session
I usually drink 2 beers and leave it at that. Im honestly getting intoxicated nowadays with 1, 2nd one for sips during the rest of the party
Sure, if you don’t like processing protein.
people who drink 0 do so to fix their health after drinking above 0
>n=56
i worked in alcohol epidemiology for several years. if anyone has any specific questions reply to this post. i'll check back in an hour.
ok, is OPS graph correct or not
The j-shaped curve is highly controversial.
where its from:
the dip near zero comes from an observed lower mortality specifically due to ischemic heart disease. ischemic heart disease is the largest cause of death in lots of developed countries, hence will dip the total mortality relative risk curve under 1 all by itself (there are a few other diseases that have small effects). exceptional locations are canada where various cancers are highest and norway where ischemic heart disease has an enormously outsized portion.
ischemic heart disease is one of the most controversial diseases in general, with a huge number of confounding variables. you find vegans latching on to it too. more recent meta-analyses (zhao et al 2017 and there was a more recent one in review) claim to find when you account for confounders alcohol loses its protective effect on ischemic heart disease. what are those confounders? a fricking lot. the raw data is garbage.
the real solution is to ignore ischemic heart disease in your research. when you do that you get less "sellable" data and results, though
my opinion:
protective effect is overblown. dont think that consuming small amounts of alcohol will make you live longer, but also reject similar dogmatics that push "any amount of alcohol is dangerous"
>confounders
every study dont is false, they all try to describe complex reality, via using forms and trusting humans they wont cheat on them, ie "Have you eaten a cookie yesterday, not included in your planned diet?" "No, I swear to god yesterday was 1500kcals day, on god"
one of the references we used to correct for underreporting in the population asked "did you drink yesterday? how much?" alongside "how often do you drink? how much?" and then matched frequencies (also normalizing the higher likelihood and consumption on weekends)
one of the really eye-opening longitudinal studies followed up on people every ten years. some respondents who reported regular heavy drinking at the beginning of the study reported LIFETIME ABSTINENCE twenty years later. The lifetime abstinence group is the reference group for these relative risks, by the way (at
).
the j-shape can also be theorized as being caused by "sick quitters" - that is, people who do not drink within a certain culture are just more likely to be unhealthy, hence could not handle the additionally sickening effects of alcohol on the body. i wouldnt offload all of the explanation to that, but it can confound.
i have a hike planned, but i was going to try to find the list of confounders. its absurd, i recomend you take a look. once you remove them you have like nothing left and its certainly not generalizable. its by the same group that produced the 2017 one (zhao et al) and i think it came out this year.
if there's one thing i want to say about all this its that an individual should not be making decisions about how to live their life based on statistical estimations. the only people that should be interested in this knowledge are people who govern large populations. even then, legislating based on this shit is laughable.
for an individual, live based on your own experience and knowledge. if your body feels bad after drinking, listen to it. theres a level that will be fine for you at which you suffer NO ill effects. it might be zero. it could be a lot more than zero. accept it, whatever it is, but trust your body over lazy idiots who had to get phds in order for anyone to pay attention to them.
It'd be nice to hear your general take.
I'd like your opinion on the "any consumption is dangerous/unhealthy" take thats been common over the last few years.
Allegedly fasting is very restorative to the liver for things like fatty liver disease, and the liver in general has a strong ability to recover on its own. Obviously alcohol damages other organs, but theoretically how plausable would it be for fasting/abstenence periods to prevent things like cirrhosis? I ask in part because most alcoholics I've known were tradesmen who ate like shit and were significantly overweight.
Generally, my take is that alcohol epidemiology research tries to address too many questions with too few answers. the "any consumption is dangerous/unhealthy" got a lot of traction from the lancet meta in 2019(?). This combined data from across the entire world, essentially denying cultural, genetic, legal, regulatory, etc. differences in subpopulations to generate their results. the big one that got the media attention was "any level of consumption is dangerous". this abuses the colloquial understanding of "safety" and "danger" in order to report "findings were that small levels of daily consumption gave a slightly elevated risk of mortality". this research used the zhao et al meta i referenced in
for their ischemic heart disease numbers, so this was an unsurprising result for anyone in the field.
more personally, i believe that evangelism through scaremongering is academically unethical. i also believe that statistics are heavily abused within this field.
i dont have knowledge of fasting&liver specific things - i'm no medical doctor. i picked up a little bit about alcohol + glycogen replenishment because of my bodybuilding training (eg if you do a high intensity workout and then drink heavily that night you wont be ready to high intensity the same muscles the next day)
from the epidemiology standpoint, ALL consumption is reduced to average daily consumption. this is a huge assumption. if one wanted the estimates to be actionable by them, they would need to actually consume alcohol pretty regularly. hence, the daily drinkers can learn a lot from this research, the weekend binger cant. all they can glean is a greater risk of acute injuries like assaults, car wrecks, etc. you know, common sense stuff you dont need an academic to confirm.
Thanks for the write-up, very informative.
anon, please
I love alcohol, please tell me moderate amounts are healthy, or at least, not that bad for you. Btw I broke my legs and am sober since 3 weeks, what do you think about that. Also what do you think about mixing beer with bones regeneration
why didn't you just buy new bones, IDIOT
>buy new bones
can I
i also love alcohol! i ended up cutting back my drinking in part because of the overwhelming evidence that there definitively exist negative long term effects when you get above certain consumption levels regardless of who you are.
moderate amounts are not well defined, but i can break it down a little bit. the new canada guidelines are sufficient reference for most people, and the older uk ones might be the most comprehensive ive read.
if you drink often enough that your "average daily consumption" is a representative measure (ie - 10 beers on a friday is not the same as 1.5 beers every day) then the guidelines will be applicable (see above where i mention daily drinking
). if you drink enough that the risk curves are significantly different from 0 (without checking i think this is near 3 beer/day on average) then theyre even more applicable. if you drink sporadically or very little, you are lost in the totality of data.
something to recognize about these things is that the total consumption of the population follows a gamma distribution. sure, maybe 80% of people in your demographic drink, but that's defined as consuming at least 1 drink in the past year. a supermajority of them drink less than 1 drink per day (averaged out). most people's self-assessment of drinking volume is a significant underestimate (this is addressed and corrected for in the literature).
again, im not a medical doctor. i don't know how alcohol affects the healing of a bone and i dont know what goes into that process. what i do know is that opioids (at least the ones i got for my broken bones) and alcohol are both processed by the liver so using them together carries significantly higher immediate/short term risks.
as of today, I'm 67 days sober. I don't think I'll ever go back
I drank 2-12 beers a day on average from August 17th 2021 until about July 17th 2023 and then decided to cut down, not even quit, in an effort to lose weight. I’ve lost like 5.5 kilos by just not drinking everyday. I’ve still had like 17 “drinks”, about 1 a day more or less, since July 18th. No shakes or overheating besides for the first like 12-16 hours in regards to the latter.
I don't get it.
56 drinks / day is as good as 0?
Why is this graph purposefully obtuse.
It's cringe & and probably made by a leftist.
grams of ethanol moron
a drink is 8-10 grams
Oh, ok, makes sense.
I thought it's made up bs because no one drinks 50+ drinks
in england its 10 gram
in canada is like 13 or 14 (whatever is in 1 can beer)
in america is 12 gram
looks like theyre using english units in the graph
(this is relevant because i recommended the canada alcohol health guide as sufficient earlier)
no in england it's 8g / 10ml
>four drinks a day is healthier than no alcohol
huh?
Alcohol fricks with my sleep, so I try to minimize it.