>t. never trained deadlifts in your life
quit parroting shit you hear on the internet lmao, sure its less than optimal but its a lot more than what most claim. Just don't load up the weight like a dumbass and you'll be fine (same with literally every other exercise). Imagine going to the gym and robbing yourself of one of the best ways to express strength lmao.
>exercise physiology
lmao your back isn't made of glass lmao, there is no inherently unsafe position/ lift, only unsafe loading. Just don't load up weight like an idiot and you'll be fine
Pls watch any of cbums back or leg workout vids and link me a period of any of them where he dls frequently
Ronnie Coleman was a moronic bigger roused out of his mind, look at his current status to see how well his training worked out for him
Jay Cutler did not deadlift regularly either
Completely deluded dyel
not him but clearly those guys care about deadlifts, even if they just did them off season. Lifting is boring as frick if you just do "le optimal hypertrophy work" all the time and never express your strength now and again.
I pity if you've been in the gym for long and never got the chance to rile up the bros and horse around with heavy shit
just remember this post, I want you to really concentrate hard on this moment, so when you reach snap city, you will remember me and my tiny pepe
The back isn't made of "le special snapping muscle" lmao. No movement is inherently unsafe, just unsafe loading. People snap their biceps doing curls doing weights that are too heavy.
soreness != fatigue. I've set many PRs while still experiencing DOMS from a previous workout. I've also failed should be easy lifts while feeling no soreness because I overworked myself. Just something to keep in mind. As for the original question yes pull (deadlift) and leg (squat) days will interfere with each other, and that is one of the major downside of PPL (atleast for strength gains). What you could do is alternate squats and deadlifts as your main leg day movements and not do deadlifts on pull day. Keep push and pull otherwise the same and alternate between
Leg A:
Squats
Romanian deadlifts
accessories
Leg B:
Deadlifts
Front squats
accessories
By throwing in a variant of the main lift when it's rotated out you will still hit most of the muscles from that movement without needing to train it. You will also accumulate less fatigue than if you did both on the same day.
From what i understand after wading through the sea of zero reading comprehension replies is it's probably best to do deadlifts on leg days. Just alternate between squatting first and DLing first. The alternative is some PPL configuration with 1 or more rest days, which is wasting time if you're a noob who recovers fast.
deadlifts don't really train any muscle through a full range of motion since the knee flexion prevents sufficient lengthening of the glutes and hamstrings.
Remove deadlifts completely from your program and replace with a hip hinge movement which can take your musculature to a full ROM, like SLDL och romanian deadlifts
>Remove deadlifts completely from your program and replace with a hip hinge movement which can take your musculature to a full ROM, like SLDL och romanian deadlifts
These still aren't full ROM unless you're doing wide grip + deficit, and you can apply the same thing to normal deadlifts anyway, you'll just get more glute bias over hamstrings as well as more erectors/traps/rhomboids since the weight will be heavier due to the more advantageous positions
RDL=full rom for glutes
SLDL=full rom for hamstrings
Brainlet.
Bainlet. More load does not not equal better muscular hypertrophy. Our muscles have no idea how much we are lifting or what exercise we are doing they only care about the amount of torque being generated and tension being applied. See: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28834797/.
And, yes the deadlift creates a lot of isometric stimulus in the mid and upper extremeties of the back. But isometric stimulus is inferior to isotonic contractions where you're taking a muscle through a large range of motion. If this wasn't true we could just disregard motor unit recruitment being range of motion dependent and just hold a dumbell at 90 degrees as opposed to curling it for bicep growth.
You're one of those DYEL Zoomers that think they are going to look like Roidy Coleman if they just do a few more reps of RDL with a whopping 1.5 plates on the bar and feel "that sick lower back pump, homie!".
1 year ago
Anonymous
Post physique, eternal no-gains millenial shitting up every with your dyel stank.
>RDL=full rom for glutes >SLDL=full rom for hamstrings
Dafaq? They have the same fricking joint angles you idiot, and neither are full ROM unless you're going to your maximum flexibility, which after a certain point requires adding a deficit and/or widening the grip. Conventional is more glutes because the knee flexion reduces the ability of the hamstrings to contribute to the movement, forcing the glutes to provide proportionally more force to extend the hips. Since the hips are closer to the bar however, and due to the greater involvement of the quads, the absolute loads are generally greater, which involves the erectors, traps, and rhomboids more simply due to the increased weight. >Bainlet. More load does not not equal better muscular hypertrophy.
Yes, which is why you should use the absolute maximum range of motion you can use to reduce the weight you can lift. I use what most people would consider baby weight on RDLs because of the ridiculous range of motion, yet it feels like my hamstrings are going to fricking tear off the bone when I'm doing them because of the ridiculous stretch they undergo >And, yes the deadlift creates a lot of isometric stimulus in the mid and upper extremeties of the back. But isometric stimulus is inferior to isotonic contractions where you're taking a muscle through a large range of motion.
Did I ever say otherwise? It's simply free volume for those regions, rows and other movements should be the primary movements for those muscles. But if I can get some diffuse volume from these lifts, I can get away with doing less rowing volume. Simple as
1 year ago
Anonymous
>They have the same fricking joint
You have no idea how to execute any of the excersies if this is what you believe.
>I use what most people would consider baby weight on RDLs because of the ridiculous range of motion, yet it feels like my hamstrings are going to fricking tear off the bone when I'm doing them because of the ridiculous stretch they undergo
Don't care you have no idea what you're talking about. RDLs stretch the glutes if you do them properly whilst SLDS stretch the hamstrings.
>It's simply free volume for those regions
No such thing as "free volume". And volume is hot the prime driver of hypertrophy. Having a ton of muscles involved, which in this case don't even get a good stimulus means you're going to have less overall motor unit recruitment for whatever target muscle you're trying to work. If you want to train your upper back you should pick a stable movement which actually train the musculature of the upper back since you only have a limited amount of motor units you can recruit.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>You have no idea how to execute any of the excersies if this is what you believe.
Then tell me how they're supposed to be different exactly? You hinge at the hips on both movements, with the knees remaining over the ankles in most people, and if you're flexible enough (like me lmao) you can try to flex your quads to reduce the amount of knee flexion so that your knees move behind the ankles, producing a greater stretch on the hamstrings. >Don't care you have no idea what you're talking about. RDLs stretch the glutes if you do them properly whilst SLDS stretch the hamstrings.
You're talking shit out of your ass right now. SLDLs are deadstop from the floor while RDLs are performed floating-style, that's the only fricking difference. You sound like one of those frickers who thinks that SLDLS = completely locked knee while RDLs = slightly bent knee, when in reality both of them should be performed with the knees directly over the ankles or behind the ankles, since locking the knee is moronic and fricks up your force production. Any forward knee travel and you're turning it into a conventional deadlift, simple as >No such thing as "free volume".
It isn't free in the sense that there is no fatigue cost, but in the sense that I can perform fewer sets of rows because I'm getting some additional stimulus from this movement anyway. I do a shit ton of rowing so this point is irrelevant, you could delete RDLs from my program and while my erectors/glutes/hamstrings would probably shrink, my upper back would keep growing lol >And volume is hot the prime driver of hypertrophy.
Never said it was, it's multi-factorial
Cont
1 year ago
Anonymous
>Then tell me how they're supposed to be different exactly?
When you do an RDL you have a knee-bend this makes the RDL a dominant glute movement. When you keep the knees as straight as possible, as in an SLDL, then the hamstrings are going the most leverage to extend the hip, which makes it primarily a hamstring exercise. Note the word: primarily. See: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24259779/
The rest of the post is just redundant and you're just repeating your other points/mixing in RDL/SLDls into the discussion when you originally argued that you should use deadlifts to train the upper back since it allows you to use more load and therefore would give a better hypertrophic stimulus for the erectors/traps/rhomboids
1 year ago
Anonymous
>When you do an RDL you have a knee-bend this makes the RDL a dominant glute movement.
Then you're doing it wrong, the knee is supposed to be directly over the ankles or behind the ankles on both movements. The difference is that you need to break the weight off of the floor on the SLDL which makes it more specific to deadlifts, while RDLs are performed floating so they're arguably better for hypertrophy since you don't need to break the weight off the floor. Some bodybuilders still do SLDLs though since the ROM is more standardized, and the difference isn't too big anyway so it isn't a big deal. Both movements should be hamstring dominant, I see no reason why you should them for glutes when BSS exists. >when you originally argued that you should use deadlifts to train the upper back since it allows you to use more load and therefore would give a better hypertrophic stimulus for the erectors/traps/rhomboids
The reason why I do them is not so much for more of those other things, but for less hamstrings. My hamstrings wouldn't be able to recover in time for my next session if I did them as an RDL, so I let the knees come forward to turn it into a conventional deadlift so that the hamstrings cannot contribute as much. Remember I'm still using a wide grip and a huge deficit so the weights aren't astronomical, the SFR is still great. The extra glutes/erectors/traps/rhomboids is just a nice bonus since that means I don't need to do extra volume for them elsewhere in the program.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>which in this case don't even get a good stimulus means you're going to have less overall motor unit recruitment for whatever target muscle you're trying to work.
I literally have to use a less-hamstring biased variation on my second lower body day because my hamstrings wouldn't be able to recover in time otherwise. I think I'm getting a ridiculous amount of motor unit requirement as it is dumbass >If you want to train your upper back you should pick a stable movement which actually train the musculature of the upper back since you only have a limited amount of motor units you can recruit.
Yes, which is why I do chest supported rows with thoracic flexion/extension, which allows me to dynamically train the thoracic erectors as well as the rest of the upper back. I also get to stretch out the entire upper back for multiple seconds at the bottom of the each rep, which provides an even greater stimulus due to stretch mediated hypertrophy.
>RDL=full rom for glutes >SLDL=full rom for hamstrings
Dafaq? They have the same fricking joint angles you idiot, and neither are full ROM unless you're going to your maximum flexibility, which after a certain point requires adding a deficit and/or widening the grip. Conventional is more glutes because the knee flexion reduces the ability of the hamstrings to contribute to the movement, forcing the glutes to provide proportionally more force to extend the hips. Since the hips are closer to the bar however, and due to the greater involvement of the quads, the absolute loads are generally greater, which involves the erectors, traps, and rhomboids more simply due to the increased weight. >Bainlet. More load does not not equal better muscular hypertrophy.
Yes, which is why you should use the absolute maximum range of motion you can use to reduce the weight you can lift. I use what most people would consider baby weight on RDLs because of the ridiculous range of motion, yet it feels like my hamstrings are going to fricking tear off the bone when I'm doing them because of the ridiculous stretch they undergo >And, yes the deadlift creates a lot of isometric stimulus in the mid and upper extremeties of the back. But isometric stimulus is inferior to isotonic contractions where you're taking a muscle through a large range of motion.
Did I ever say otherwise? It's simply free volume for those regions, rows and other movements should be the primary movements for those muscles. But if I can get some diffuse volume from these lifts, I can get away with doing less rowing volume. Simple as
Also, if we want to maximize the amount of tension on the posterior chain, we should flex the shoulders and the thoracic spine at the bottom of the movement so that the bar can drift forward, and ideally it would go in front of your toes so that the bar can go lower than your feet. This allows two things to happen: more range of motion, and a greater distance between the bar and the hips (since by this point the hips have stopped moving back), creating a larger moment arm allowing you to get an even greater stimulus out of less load. IIRC Ed Coan did promote letting the bar drift forward so this isn't anything revolutionary, people just don't talk about it for some reason
Typically in an RDL, you have a greater degree of knee flexion which makes the movement glute dominant. Typically in an SLDL you have a lesser degree of knee flexion which makes it hamstring dominant. Again See PMID 24259779. It's not a hard concept to graps at all, so I do not see why you're repeating the same point over and over.
>I'm still using a wide grip and a huge deficit so the weights aren't astronomical, the SFR is still great. The extra glutes/erectors/traps/rhomboids is just a nice bonus since that means I don't need to do extra volume for them elsewhere in the program.
I literally do not care about your personal training or how you've modified the deadlift to try to make it bias more of the upper back musculature, or how well you recover from different movements. It's anecdotal and does not matter.
To make this simple for you. Nothing attatched to the scapula does hip extension. And the deadlift, and all forms of it, like RDLs rack pulls, SLDLS etc are all hip extension patters. So all of the movement patterns willl load the hip extendors to varying degrees, depending on how you perform them.
Therefore using conventional deadlifts to train your back musculature is not ideal. The traps/rhomboids are involved but every EMG that has looked at mid traps and rows/shrugs compared to deadlifts show that the former is significantly better. Snatch grip deadlifts are the worst option to use as the traps will actually experience less force due to that position.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Replied to myself. Meant for
>When you do an RDL you have a knee-bend this makes the RDL a dominant glute movement.
Then you're doing it wrong, the knee is supposed to be directly over the ankles or behind the ankles on both movements. The difference is that you need to break the weight off of the floor on the SLDL which makes it more specific to deadlifts, while RDLs are performed floating so they're arguably better for hypertrophy since you don't need to break the weight off the floor. Some bodybuilders still do SLDLs though since the ROM is more standardized, and the difference isn't too big anyway so it isn't a big deal. Both movements should be hamstring dominant, I see no reason why you should them for glutes when BSS exists. >when you originally argued that you should use deadlifts to train the upper back since it allows you to use more load and therefore would give a better hypertrophic stimulus for the erectors/traps/rhomboids
The reason why I do them is not so much for more of those other things, but for less hamstrings. My hamstrings wouldn't be able to recover in time for my next session if I did them as an RDL, so I let the knees come forward to turn it into a conventional deadlift so that the hamstrings cannot contribute as much. Remember I'm still using a wide grip and a huge deficit so the weights aren't astronomical, the SFR is still great. The extra glutes/erectors/traps/rhomboids is just a nice bonus since that means I don't need to do extra volume for them elsewhere in the program.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>Typically in an RDL, you have a greater degree of knee flexion which makes the movement glute dominant.
Then explain why the frick my hamstrings feel like they're about to rip off when I do RDLs then? Again, if you're bending the knee excessively you're literally just doing a conventional deadlift and calling it an RDL, something that it is not. Your distinction makes no sense since I have never seen anyone make this distinction, virtually everyone past the novice stage refers to them interchangeably since they're the same fricking movement pattern, but one is deadstop while the other isn't >To make this simple for you. Nothing attatched to the scapula does hip extension. And the deadlift, and all forms of it, like RDLs rack pulls, SLDLS etc are all hip extension patters. So all of the movement patterns willl load the hip extendors to varying degrees, depending on how you perform them.
I already know this shit moron, but the bar stretches the shit out of what is attached to your scapula since it is directly pulling on it. Towards the end of a set those muscles are burning (not as much as my glutes and hams tho) so I'm pretty sure something's going on there. >EMG
Fricking hell, now I know you're an absolute moron. EMG data is dogshit, and one of the most consistent issues with it is that it doesn't register movements that target the stretched position (like pullovers for example) as much as movements that target the contracted position. Guess what? The traps and rhomboids ONLY stretch during the movement, so of course there is little EMG activity. EMG is simply flawed.
1 year ago
Anonymous
All of this post is anecdotal. No one cares where you "feel like your hamstrings are going to rip off" or if your muscles are "burning" lmfao. You don't grasp basic concepts of biomechanics or scientific research. I've provided you with several PMIDs refuting your BS and your rebuttals are "how come when i feel this". You have double digit IQ.
>EMG data is dogshit
Yeah, totally. Just lift heavy stuff that will fix everything.
How would you feel if you didn't have breakfast this morning?
1 year ago
Anonymous
>muh study says XYZ
And? If it produces no real-world results then who cares? Again, stretch mediated hypertrophy is the key, so there's no reason why hinges would be poor for the traps/rhomboids when they stretch the shit out of them. That's the entire reason why I do RDLs the way I do them anyway, it's to maximize the stretch on the hamstrings to maximize the stimulus I get >Yeah, totally. Just lift heavy stuff that will fix everything.
I already told you that I use baby weight due to the ridiculous amounts of mechanical disadvantage I get put into during these lifts. I think you're the one with a double digit IQ >How would you feel if you didn't have breakfast this morning?
Hungry, especially because I trained legs yesterday. And I wouldn't be as alert due to the lack of theobromine contained in my breakfast. Yes I understand conditional hypotheticals, you saw the same screencap as I did.
Going to bed because I need gains, frick you and have a good night's sleep because sleep is important
1 year ago
Anonymous
>muh study says XYZ And? If it produces no real-world results then who cares?
If you don't care about research, which you just admitted you don't, what's the point of arguing? Just do like the rest of the morons on this board and follow the hacks saying ice baths are for health, metabolic stress causes muscle growth and volume is the driver for hypertrophy and do your conventional deadlifts to train the upper back musculature.
>Again, stretch mediated hypertrophy is the key, so there's no reason why hinges would be poor for the traps/rhomboids when they stretch the shit out of them
Not all muscles benefit som stretch mediation. Traps/rhomboids are one of the muscle groups that likely do not benefit from stretch mediation. Whilst hamstrings/glutes likely benefit from stretch-mediation.
>I already told you that I use baby weight due to the ridiculous amounts of mechanical disadvantage I get put into during these lifts. I think you're the one with a double digit IQ
Then why argue that conventional deadlifts train the traps/rhomboids well since you can use extra load? Dog shit brain.
1 year ago
Anonymous
Kino
1 year ago
Anonymous
>If you don't care about research, which you just admitted you don't, what's the point of arguing?
Because the issue here is semantics, I already told you that I completely agree with more knee bend = more glutes and less knee bend = more hamstrings. My problem is that you're saying that SLDLs = hamstrings and RDLs = glutes when that just isn't true. They hit both, but generally the hamstrings are going to be biased more since the knees are relatively straight on both lifts. >conventional deadlifts to train the upper back musculature.
Again, you don't understand what diffuse volume is. Yes, it would be nice if we could exclusively use surgically precise lifts to hit every single muscle fiber perfectly, but we don't have 10 hours a day to train. So instead we do big lifts that give some stimulus to a ton of different areas, and then we can use other lifts to fill in the gaps. Hip hinges will give a blanket stimulus to the upper back, and then we can do rows to fill in more volume, and then we can get even more precise with other movements to hit specific muscles of the upper back.
Cont.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>Not all muscles benefit som stretch mediation. Traps/rhomboids are one of the muscle groups that likely do not benefit from stretch mediation. Whilst hamstrings/glutes likely benefit from stretch-mediation.
What? It's literally the opposite: while I do agree that the glutes/hamstrings respond very well to stretch mediated hypertrophy, the traps and rhomboids also respond extremely well to stretch mediated hypertrophy. In fact, IIRC the best data we have on stretch mediated hypertrophy is on the fricking back muscles, so if we're going to use it on any region, it should be on the back muscles, including the traps and rhomboids. And it makes sense: one of the primary functions of the traps and rhomboids is to prevent your shoulders from being ripped off, and when a force is trying to do exactly that, the traps and rhomboids get put into a stretched position. So of course they would respond very well to massive stretch, that's literally what they're designed to do. >Then why argue that conventional deadlifts train the traps/rhomboids well since you can use extra load? Dog shit brain.
Again, you have no understanding of the implications and effects of lift modifications. I can't use as much weight due to the wide grip and large deficit, but now I have to travel through a much greater range of motion, which completely counteracts the reduced weight since the traps and rhomboids are under load for a much greater duration. And the point is that I can use more weight doing them conventional style compared to RDL style: all the other parameters are the same, I pause at the bottom on both lifts, I use a wide grip on both lifts, and I use a large deficit on both lifts. But the extra weight I can use when I let the knees come forward allows me to get a better trap/rhomboid stimulus, even if the absolute weight is still fairly light: the point is that it's still heavier than what I can use on RDLs with all the other parameters being the same.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>the best data we have on stretch mediated hypertrophy is on the fricking back muscles
Link the data then. All of your posts are just inchorent ramblings and repeating talking points which I've already disproven with actual data.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>All of your posts are just inchorent ramblings and repeating talking points which I've already disproven with actual data.
Disproved what exactly? Your first link (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28834797/) is just talking about how both heavy weight and light weight can build muscle, which I never disagreed with so that doesn't disprove anything. Your second link (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24259779/) just says that more knee flexion = more glutes and less knee flexion = more hamstrings when it comes to hip extension, which I never disagreed with either, so this also doesn't disprove anything. The frick?
1 year ago
Anonymous
>Link the data then.
This article goes over stuff for traps, can't find anything on rhomboids rn https://sandcresearch.medium.com/how-should-we-train-the-trapezius-1075284e05ee
So I am partially incorrect, the traps don't actually experience stretch mediated hypertrophy (probably confused them with the lats since IIRC those do respond very well to it), however if you do some digging there's still reasons why you would aim for the lengthened position >In practice, the trapezius cannot experience stretch-mediated hypertrophy. Nevertheless, it may suffer from active insufficiency if trained predominantly at short muscle lengths. Therefore, training the trapezius using sustained isometric contractions in the contracted position or pauses (holds) is unlikely to be as effective as working the muscle to a greater extent at longer lengths.
This is the main problem: unlike most other exercises, the back tends to give out in the contracted position instead of the lengthened position. When you fail on a bench press or a squat, you generally fail in the long or mid range position, while when you fail on a pullup or a barbell row, you fail in the shortened position. This is probably why some people get better upper back gains from cheat rows: the momentum from the hips balances out the strength curve for the traps/rhomboids so that it isn't so shortened-biased.
Cont.
1 year ago
Anonymous
And when you think about it, the traps/rhomboids aren't constantly protracted during hip hinge movements: at lockout, your scapula is typically in neutral or even retracted since the bar is pulling straight down, but when you enter the negative, you get forced into scapular protraction due to how heavy the weight is. Which means you're pretty much doing eccentric overload for the traps/rhomboids, even more so than cheat rows for example. It's just another way to hit those muscles: you can do rows to target the shortened position more since that's where the back fails (ideally you would also do lengthened partials to get the lengthened position too), and then you can also do hip hinges for diffuse volume since those will eccentrically overload the traps/rhomboids while also hitting the erectors/glutes/hamstrings. No problem with that since you're going to be doing your hip hinges to hit the posterior chain anyway.
I rest my case
1 year ago
Anonymous
Also >Snatch grip deadlifts are the worst option to use as the traps will actually experience less force due to that position.
The fibers of the traps actually align better with a snatch grip than a regular grip, so this is false as well. Why do you think everyone advocates for widening the grip if you want to bias the upper back more on hinges? It's for a reason lol
Besides this, again, why use excessive knee bend on RDLs to bias the glutes when you can just do BSS and get much better glute stimulus? Do RDLs for hamstrings and BSS for glutes, simple as
1 year ago
Anonymous
>The fibers of the traps actually align better with a snatch grip than a regular grip, so this is false as well
UH OH the fibers line up so perfectly IT HAS TO BE THE PRIME MOVER IN THE EXERCISE. Prime mover is determined by what has the best leverage at certain joint angles. Muscle fibers perform during stretch and contraction and don't need to be parallel to resistance to produce force. >Why do you think everyone advocates for widening the grip if you want to bias the upper back more on hinges? It's for a reason lol
Again more anecdotes. Don't care. Doesn't tell my anything. Not proof of anything.
>Besides this, again, why use excessive knee bend on RDLs to bias the glutes when you can just do BSS and get much better glute stimulus? Do RDLs for hamstrings and BSS for glutes, simple as
You can use different movements to train the same musculature. BBS is a good movement for the glutes as well as the quads, especially rectus fermoris. RDL, could be used on a leg day to train the glutes and hamstrings, whilst BBS to train the glutes on a more quad biased leg day. And again an RDL is GLUTE biased. Can't even be bothered to pull up the PMID again
1 year ago
Anonymous
>UH OH the fibers line up so perfectly IT HAS TO BE THE PRIME MOVER IN THE EXERCISE. Prime mover is determined by what has the best leverage at certain joint angles. Muscle fibers perform during stretch and contraction and don't need to be parallel to resistance to produce force.
When did I say they were the primer mover you fricking moron? This is like saying that the erectors aren't involved on squats and deadlifts because they don't move the weight: no shit they aren't moving the weight, but they're still highly involved because they're resisting spinal flexion. Same thing with the traps and rhomboids, except they're working to resist the weight of the bar from ripping your shoulders off >Again more anecdotes. Don't care. Doesn't tell my anything. Not proof of anything.
Then I can't prove anything since there aren't enough studies on this shit since there's not much incentive to research which movement hits the upper back better lol. But again, you can ask anyone from the science based nerds to the "just lift heavy frickin shit brother" broscientists and they'll both tell you that a wider grip works the upper back more on hip hinges. >BBS is a good movement for the glutes as well as the quads, especially rectus fermoris.
You're literally proving my point here: the rectus femoris is not the primary mover on BSS (since the front leg does almost all of the work, and the rec fem works on the back leg, not the front leg), but you get some diffuse volume from BSS since it does still undergo tension. I don't use BSS as my main rec fem builder, I use weighted sissy squats for that, but BSS is great in that I can get some diffuse volume to my rectus femoris, allowing me to get away with fewer sets of sissy squats. Same thing here, but with the traps and rhomboids instead. I learnt about diffuse volume very early in my training, this isn't anything revolutionary
Cont
1 year ago
Anonymous
>When did I say they were the primer mover you fricking moron? This is like saying that the erectors aren't involved on squats and deadlifts because they don't move the weight: no shit they aren't moving the weight, but they're still highly involved because they're resisting spinal flexion. Same thing with the traps and rhomboids, except they're working to resist the weight of the bar from ripping your shoulders off
By your logic you should use squats to train the spinal eretors and deadlifts to train the traps and rhomboids. Terrific training regiment. You might as well throw in some extra deadlifts to train the lats while you're at it since they help stabalize the humerus and spine.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>By your logic you should use squats to train the spinal eretors and deadlifts to train the traps and rhomboids.
And now you've worked yourself into a corner, congratulations. You know that people constantly struggle with balancing the spinal erector fatigue from squats with the spinal erector fatigue from deadlifts, right? Clearly the spinal erectors get worked hard from squats, despite the fact that they do not work dynamically. Same thing on deadlifts but to a greater extent due to the greater forward lean and generally heavier loads. >You might as well throw in some extra deadlifts to train the lats while you're at it since they help stabalize the humerus and spine.
The lats do not get put into a stretched position on deadlifts, so this isn't the same. Some people with really long arms can get ok lat growth since the lats become much more mechanically disadvantaged, but otherwise you won't get much growth if any at all since they don't get stretched that much, they simply act to keep the bar close to the body.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>And again an RDL is GLUTE biased. Can't even be bothered to pull up the PMID again
Holy fricking shit I do not give a shit about your dumbass study that no one cares about. Again, I completely agree that more knee bend = more glutes and less knee bend = more hamstrings, but no one fricking bends their knees on an RDL excessively because that would turn it into a conventional deadlift. SLDLs and RDLs are performed EXACTLY the same way, the only difference is that SLDLs are deadstop while RDLs are not. No other difference, I don't care if they are defined differently in your study because no one in the real world defines them this way. They both hit the glutes, but the hamstrings are generally what gets biased more, and they should be since we have better movements for the glutes anyhow. >s-source?
Same lift
Real-world example: look at the knee position in both videos, they're in the exact same spot in both cases, meaning that the hinge pattern is the same. The only difference is that he omits the eccentric on SLDLs, he does slightly more ROM on SLDLs since he reverses before touching the floor on RDLs, and he lets the bar drift forward on SLDLs ed coan-style while keeping it over mid-foot instead on RDLs. And of course the SLDLs are deadstop while the RDLs aren't.
And again, look at the joint angles. The hinge pattern is exactly the same. Also video title
?t=50
Literally talks about RDLs being an excellent upper back developer in the first 10 seconds of the video
1 year ago
Anonymous
You're basically trying to argue that an RDL and an SLDL is the same movement. Without kneelfexion in either
there's not a point in making a distinction between the two. Touching of off the floor is not going to bias different
musculature it's just going to make the ROM longer. To most people including me the RDL and SLDL are different movements, an
RDL is in a way more flexed knee position where the glute has more emphasis. Whilst a SLDL is going to emphasis hamstrings more
because there's no knee flexion component. If you had ever done a proper RDL you would know it biases the glutes. I'm not going to watch YouTube videos you provided, since all of them are created by hacks who have no idea what they're talking about. If you follow people like Alpha Destiny, no wonder you belive in things like "stretch mediated hypertrophy" to train the upper back musculature. I'm not going to argue this point anymore. If you want to do hip hinges to train the upper back, even though NOTHING attatched to the scapula does hip extension, go ahead. Dumb people will waaste their time on dumb shit.
1 year ago
Anonymous
>You're basically trying to argue that an RDL and an SLDL is the same movement.
Yes, they are. The only difference is that one is deadstop (more specific to deadlifting off of the floor) and the other isn't. Which is why people use them interchangably. See pic rel, if RDLs were performed with more knee flexion they would be further to the right like conventional deadlifts, but because they aren't they're all the way on the left side with good mornings and SLDLs. >To most people including me the RDL and SLDL are different movements
Who the frick is "most people"? I have never seen anyone besides you make this distinction. You're entirely alone in this >RDL is in a way more flexed knee position where the glute has more emphasis
How many times do I have to say this? If you're undergoing lots of knee flexion during an RDL, you are NOT performing an RDL, you're performing a bastardized conventional deadlift. >since all of them are created by hacks who have no idea what they're talking about.
And you know what you're talking about? Lmao frick off >If you follow people like Alpha Destiny, no wonder you belive in things like "stretch mediated hypertrophy" to train the upper back musculature.
Okay then you should be able to post body and mog him >If you want to do hip hinges to train the upper back, even though NOTHING attatched to the scapula does hip extension, go ahead.
How fricking moronic are you dude? You have to hold a (very heavy) bar to do RDLs/SLDLs/deadlifts, and guess what your arms are attached to? YOUR FRICKING SCAPULA YOU DUNCE
Pls watch any of cbums back or leg workout vids and link me a period of any of them where he dls frequently
Ronnie Coleman was a moronic bigger roused out of his mind, look at his current status to see how well his training worked out for him
Jay Cutler did not deadlift regularly either
Completely deluded dyel
It pains me that I had to scroll this far to find someone suggesting this... And pains me even more no one replied. This is the correct answer, have a hamstring/glute leg day and a quad leg day
holy moly
Why would you deadlift? If you're not competing the risk to reward ratio is non existent, think long term and save your joints and back
>t. never trained deadlifts in your life
quit parroting shit you hear on the internet lmao, sure its less than optimal but its a lot more than what most claim. Just don't load up the weight like a dumbass and you'll be fine (same with literally every other exercise). Imagine going to the gym and robbing yourself of one of the best ways to express strength lmao.
yeah he should listen to a dyel on IST who knows nothing about excercise
physiology or biomechanics
>exercise physiology
lmao your back isn't made of glass lmao, there is no inherently unsafe position/ lift, only unsafe loading. Just don't load up weight like an idiot and you'll be fine
not him but clearly those guys care about deadlifts, even if they just did them off season. Lifting is boring as frick if you just do "le optimal hypertrophy work" all the time and never express your strength now and again.
I pity if you've been in the gym for long and never got the chance to rile up the bros and horse around with heavy shit
enjoy your fricked up back, when it happens (and it will) I want to to remember this post and picture my tiny penis is your mothers mouth
Deadlifts and squats make my back feel better
just remember this post, I want you to really concentrate hard on this moment, so when you reach snap city, you will remember me and my tiny pepe
The back isn't made of "le special snapping muscle" lmao. No movement is inherently unsafe, just unsafe loading. People snap their biceps doing curls doing weights that are too heavy.
Been deadlifting for like 8 years. My back is strong.
No
/thread
But my hamstrings and glutes are both very sore on my pull day. Won't that interfere with my deadlift?
Deadlift before your other stuff
My routine is push legs pull. My hamstring and glutes are sore on my pull day(deadlift) from the day before.
Do deadlifts on legday
No deadlift last. It is the final exhaustion.
no, compounds first
soreness != fatigue. I've set many PRs while still experiencing DOMS from a previous workout. I've also failed should be easy lifts while feeling no soreness because I overworked myself. Just something to keep in mind. As for the original question yes pull (deadlift) and leg (squat) days will interfere with each other, and that is one of the major downside of PPL (atleast for strength gains). What you could do is alternate squats and deadlifts as your main leg day movements and not do deadlifts on pull day. Keep push and pull otherwise the same and alternate between
Leg A:
Squats
Romanian deadlifts
accessories
Leg B:
Deadlifts
Front squats
accessories
By throwing in a variant of the main lift when it's rotated out you will still hit most of the muscles from that movement without needing to train it. You will also accumulate less fatigue than if you did both on the same day.
But i want to deadlift and squat every 4 days. I'm still a dyel and recover in 3 days max. I think ill start doing:
Pull (deadlift)
Push
Legs (squat)
Rest / anything thats not sore
btw sauce on OP is danieladrax
sexo
matched with a chick on hinge that looks likes this but is dirty blonde and has bigger breasts, soooo close to landing a date, wish me luck bros
o/
pic?
Why not
not as muscular but she looks like a dime piece
You took that screenshot 5 days ago... weirdo.
a fine addition to my collection
Pathetic
>he typed, while being pathetic
Frick me bros, I'm moronic , can someone send sauce?
Deadlifts are subhuman meme exercise for small dicked insecure beta males.
Pullups and Rows mog them. And you're less likely to snap your shit and end your lifting.
Do both, just don't ego lift
Add a rest day inbetween
Nobody replied to my point. My legs are sore on pull day from leg day the day before. Is it fine to do deadlifts with sore hammys + glutes?
I would just do Pull Push legs Rest then, back and legs tend do overlap a lot so Just put them as far apart as possible
Do legs push pull
you don't need to do deadlifts. Its a shit exercise.
i like deadlifting
for sauce refer to
i do deadlifts on my leg day am i moronic?
my main exercises on leg day are basically squat and dl
i do pull-push-legs
From what i understand after wading through the sea of zero reading comprehension replies is it's probably best to do deadlifts on leg days. Just alternate between squatting first and DLing first. The alternative is some PPL configuration with 1 or more rest days, which is wasting time if you're a noob who recovers fast.
deadlifts don't really train any muscle through a full range of motion since the knee flexion prevents sufficient lengthening of the glutes and hamstrings.
Remove deadlifts completely from your program and replace with a hip hinge movement which can take your musculature to a full ROM, like SLDL och romanian deadlifts
my huge ass as a skinnygay says otherwise
logic and biomechanics deboonked by anectodal evidence from self-proclaimed no gains skeleton
>Remove deadlifts completely from your program and replace with a hip hinge movement which can take your musculature to a full ROM, like SLDL och romanian deadlifts
These still aren't full ROM unless you're doing wide grip + deficit, and you can apply the same thing to normal deadlifts anyway, you'll just get more glute bias over hamstrings as well as more erectors/traps/rhomboids since the weight will be heavier due to the more advantageous positions
RDL=full rom for glutes
SLDL=full rom for hamstrings
Brainlet.
Bainlet. More load does not not equal better muscular hypertrophy. Our muscles have no idea how much we are lifting or what exercise we are doing they only care about the amount of torque being generated and tension being applied. See: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28834797/.
And, yes the deadlift creates a lot of isometric stimulus in the mid and upper extremeties of the back. But isometric stimulus is inferior to isotonic contractions where you're taking a muscle through a large range of motion. If this wasn't true we could just disregard motor unit recruitment being range of motion dependent and just hold a dumbell at 90 degrees as opposed to curling it for bicep growth.
You're one of those DYEL Zoomers that think they are going to look like Roidy Coleman if they just do a few more reps of RDL with a whopping 1.5 plates on the bar and feel "that sick lower back pump, homie!".
Post physique, eternal no-gains millenial shitting up every with your dyel stank.
>RDL=full rom for glutes
>SLDL=full rom for hamstrings
Dafaq? They have the same fricking joint angles you idiot, and neither are full ROM unless you're going to your maximum flexibility, which after a certain point requires adding a deficit and/or widening the grip. Conventional is more glutes because the knee flexion reduces the ability of the hamstrings to contribute to the movement, forcing the glutes to provide proportionally more force to extend the hips. Since the hips are closer to the bar however, and due to the greater involvement of the quads, the absolute loads are generally greater, which involves the erectors, traps, and rhomboids more simply due to the increased weight.
>Bainlet. More load does not not equal better muscular hypertrophy.
Yes, which is why you should use the absolute maximum range of motion you can use to reduce the weight you can lift. I use what most people would consider baby weight on RDLs because of the ridiculous range of motion, yet it feels like my hamstrings are going to fricking tear off the bone when I'm doing them because of the ridiculous stretch they undergo
>And, yes the deadlift creates a lot of isometric stimulus in the mid and upper extremeties of the back. But isometric stimulus is inferior to isotonic contractions where you're taking a muscle through a large range of motion.
Did I ever say otherwise? It's simply free volume for those regions, rows and other movements should be the primary movements for those muscles. But if I can get some diffuse volume from these lifts, I can get away with doing less rowing volume. Simple as
>They have the same fricking joint
You have no idea how to execute any of the excersies if this is what you believe.
>I use what most people would consider baby weight on RDLs because of the ridiculous range of motion, yet it feels like my hamstrings are going to fricking tear off the bone when I'm doing them because of the ridiculous stretch they undergo
Don't care you have no idea what you're talking about. RDLs stretch the glutes if you do them properly whilst SLDS stretch the hamstrings.
>It's simply free volume for those regions
No such thing as "free volume". And volume is hot the prime driver of hypertrophy. Having a ton of muscles involved, which in this case don't even get a good stimulus means you're going to have less overall motor unit recruitment for whatever target muscle you're trying to work. If you want to train your upper back you should pick a stable movement which actually train the musculature of the upper back since you only have a limited amount of motor units you can recruit.
>You have no idea how to execute any of the excersies if this is what you believe.
Then tell me how they're supposed to be different exactly? You hinge at the hips on both movements, with the knees remaining over the ankles in most people, and if you're flexible enough (like me lmao) you can try to flex your quads to reduce the amount of knee flexion so that your knees move behind the ankles, producing a greater stretch on the hamstrings.
>Don't care you have no idea what you're talking about. RDLs stretch the glutes if you do them properly whilst SLDS stretch the hamstrings.
You're talking shit out of your ass right now. SLDLs are deadstop from the floor while RDLs are performed floating-style, that's the only fricking difference. You sound like one of those frickers who thinks that SLDLS = completely locked knee while RDLs = slightly bent knee, when in reality both of them should be performed with the knees directly over the ankles or behind the ankles, since locking the knee is moronic and fricks up your force production. Any forward knee travel and you're turning it into a conventional deadlift, simple as
>No such thing as "free volume".
It isn't free in the sense that there is no fatigue cost, but in the sense that I can perform fewer sets of rows because I'm getting some additional stimulus from this movement anyway. I do a shit ton of rowing so this point is irrelevant, you could delete RDLs from my program and while my erectors/glutes/hamstrings would probably shrink, my upper back would keep growing lol
>And volume is hot the prime driver of hypertrophy.
Never said it was, it's multi-factorial
Cont
>Then tell me how they're supposed to be different exactly?
When you do an RDL you have a knee-bend this makes the RDL a dominant glute movement. When you keep the knees as straight as possible, as in an SLDL, then the hamstrings are going the most leverage to extend the hip, which makes it primarily a hamstring exercise. Note the word: primarily. See: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24259779/
The rest of the post is just redundant and you're just repeating your other points/mixing in RDL/SLDls into the discussion when you originally argued that you should use deadlifts to train the upper back since it allows you to use more load and therefore would give a better hypertrophic stimulus for the erectors/traps/rhomboids
>When you do an RDL you have a knee-bend this makes the RDL a dominant glute movement.
Then you're doing it wrong, the knee is supposed to be directly over the ankles or behind the ankles on both movements. The difference is that you need to break the weight off of the floor on the SLDL which makes it more specific to deadlifts, while RDLs are performed floating so they're arguably better for hypertrophy since you don't need to break the weight off the floor. Some bodybuilders still do SLDLs though since the ROM is more standardized, and the difference isn't too big anyway so it isn't a big deal. Both movements should be hamstring dominant, I see no reason why you should them for glutes when BSS exists.
>when you originally argued that you should use deadlifts to train the upper back since it allows you to use more load and therefore would give a better hypertrophic stimulus for the erectors/traps/rhomboids
The reason why I do them is not so much for more of those other things, but for less hamstrings. My hamstrings wouldn't be able to recover in time for my next session if I did them as an RDL, so I let the knees come forward to turn it into a conventional deadlift so that the hamstrings cannot contribute as much. Remember I'm still using a wide grip and a huge deficit so the weights aren't astronomical, the SFR is still great. The extra glutes/erectors/traps/rhomboids is just a nice bonus since that means I don't need to do extra volume for them elsewhere in the program.
>which in this case don't even get a good stimulus means you're going to have less overall motor unit recruitment for whatever target muscle you're trying to work.
I literally have to use a less-hamstring biased variation on my second lower body day because my hamstrings wouldn't be able to recover in time otherwise. I think I'm getting a ridiculous amount of motor unit requirement as it is dumbass
>If you want to train your upper back you should pick a stable movement which actually train the musculature of the upper back since you only have a limited amount of motor units you can recruit.
Yes, which is why I do chest supported rows with thoracic flexion/extension, which allows me to dynamically train the thoracic erectors as well as the rest of the upper back. I also get to stretch out the entire upper back for multiple seconds at the bottom of the each rep, which provides an even greater stimulus due to stretch mediated hypertrophy.
Also, if we want to maximize the amount of tension on the posterior chain, we should flex the shoulders and the thoracic spine at the bottom of the movement so that the bar can drift forward, and ideally it would go in front of your toes so that the bar can go lower than your feet. This allows two things to happen: more range of motion, and a greater distance between the bar and the hips (since by this point the hips have stopped moving back), creating a larger moment arm allowing you to get an even greater stimulus out of less load. IIRC Ed Coan did promote letting the bar drift forward so this isn't anything revolutionary, people just don't talk about it for some reason
Typically in an RDL, you have a greater degree of knee flexion which makes the movement glute dominant. Typically in an SLDL you have a lesser degree of knee flexion which makes it hamstring dominant. Again See PMID 24259779. It's not a hard concept to graps at all, so I do not see why you're repeating the same point over and over.
>I'm still using a wide grip and a huge deficit so the weights aren't astronomical, the SFR is still great. The extra glutes/erectors/traps/rhomboids is just a nice bonus since that means I don't need to do extra volume for them elsewhere in the program.
I literally do not care about your personal training or how you've modified the deadlift to try to make it bias more of the upper back musculature, or how well you recover from different movements. It's anecdotal and does not matter.
To make this simple for you. Nothing attatched to the scapula does hip extension. And the deadlift, and all forms of it, like RDLs rack pulls, SLDLS etc are all hip extension patters. So all of the movement patterns willl load the hip extendors to varying degrees, depending on how you perform them.
Therefore using conventional deadlifts to train your back musculature is not ideal. The traps/rhomboids are involved but every EMG that has looked at mid traps and rows/shrugs compared to deadlifts show that the former is significantly better. Snatch grip deadlifts are the worst option to use as the traps will actually experience less force due to that position.
Replied to myself. Meant for
>Typically in an RDL, you have a greater degree of knee flexion which makes the movement glute dominant.
Then explain why the frick my hamstrings feel like they're about to rip off when I do RDLs then? Again, if you're bending the knee excessively you're literally just doing a conventional deadlift and calling it an RDL, something that it is not. Your distinction makes no sense since I have never seen anyone make this distinction, virtually everyone past the novice stage refers to them interchangeably since they're the same fricking movement pattern, but one is deadstop while the other isn't
>To make this simple for you. Nothing attatched to the scapula does hip extension. And the deadlift, and all forms of it, like RDLs rack pulls, SLDLS etc are all hip extension patters. So all of the movement patterns willl load the hip extendors to varying degrees, depending on how you perform them.
I already know this shit moron, but the bar stretches the shit out of what is attached to your scapula since it is directly pulling on it. Towards the end of a set those muscles are burning (not as much as my glutes and hams tho) so I'm pretty sure something's going on there.
>EMG
Fricking hell, now I know you're an absolute moron. EMG data is dogshit, and one of the most consistent issues with it is that it doesn't register movements that target the stretched position (like pullovers for example) as much as movements that target the contracted position. Guess what? The traps and rhomboids ONLY stretch during the movement, so of course there is little EMG activity. EMG is simply flawed.
All of this post is anecdotal. No one cares where you "feel like your hamstrings are going to rip off" or if your muscles are "burning" lmfao. You don't grasp basic concepts of biomechanics or scientific research. I've provided you with several PMIDs refuting your BS and your rebuttals are "how come when i feel this". You have double digit IQ.
>EMG data is dogshit
Yeah, totally. Just lift heavy stuff that will fix everything.
How would you feel if you didn't have breakfast this morning?
>muh study says XYZ
And? If it produces no real-world results then who cares? Again, stretch mediated hypertrophy is the key, so there's no reason why hinges would be poor for the traps/rhomboids when they stretch the shit out of them. That's the entire reason why I do RDLs the way I do them anyway, it's to maximize the stretch on the hamstrings to maximize the stimulus I get
>Yeah, totally. Just lift heavy stuff that will fix everything.
I already told you that I use baby weight due to the ridiculous amounts of mechanical disadvantage I get put into during these lifts. I think you're the one with a double digit IQ
>How would you feel if you didn't have breakfast this morning?
Hungry, especially because I trained legs yesterday. And I wouldn't be as alert due to the lack of theobromine contained in my breakfast. Yes I understand conditional hypotheticals, you saw the same screencap as I did.
Going to bed because I need gains, frick you and have a good night's sleep because sleep is important
>muh study says XYZ And? If it produces no real-world results then who cares?
If you don't care about research, which you just admitted you don't, what's the point of arguing? Just do like the rest of the morons on this board and follow the hacks saying ice baths are for health, metabolic stress causes muscle growth and volume is the driver for hypertrophy and do your conventional deadlifts to train the upper back musculature.
>Again, stretch mediated hypertrophy is the key, so there's no reason why hinges would be poor for the traps/rhomboids when they stretch the shit out of them
Not all muscles benefit som stretch mediation. Traps/rhomboids are one of the muscle groups that likely do not benefit from stretch mediation. Whilst hamstrings/glutes likely benefit from stretch-mediation.
>I already told you that I use baby weight due to the ridiculous amounts of mechanical disadvantage I get put into during these lifts. I think you're the one with a double digit IQ
Then why argue that conventional deadlifts train the traps/rhomboids well since you can use extra load? Dog shit brain.
Kino
>If you don't care about research, which you just admitted you don't, what's the point of arguing?
Because the issue here is semantics, I already told you that I completely agree with more knee bend = more glutes and less knee bend = more hamstrings. My problem is that you're saying that SLDLs = hamstrings and RDLs = glutes when that just isn't true. They hit both, but generally the hamstrings are going to be biased more since the knees are relatively straight on both lifts.
>conventional deadlifts to train the upper back musculature.
Again, you don't understand what diffuse volume is. Yes, it would be nice if we could exclusively use surgically precise lifts to hit every single muscle fiber perfectly, but we don't have 10 hours a day to train. So instead we do big lifts that give some stimulus to a ton of different areas, and then we can use other lifts to fill in the gaps. Hip hinges will give a blanket stimulus to the upper back, and then we can do rows to fill in more volume, and then we can get even more precise with other movements to hit specific muscles of the upper back.
Cont.
>Not all muscles benefit som stretch mediation. Traps/rhomboids are one of the muscle groups that likely do not benefit from stretch mediation. Whilst hamstrings/glutes likely benefit from stretch-mediation.
What? It's literally the opposite: while I do agree that the glutes/hamstrings respond very well to stretch mediated hypertrophy, the traps and rhomboids also respond extremely well to stretch mediated hypertrophy. In fact, IIRC the best data we have on stretch mediated hypertrophy is on the fricking back muscles, so if we're going to use it on any region, it should be on the back muscles, including the traps and rhomboids. And it makes sense: one of the primary functions of the traps and rhomboids is to prevent your shoulders from being ripped off, and when a force is trying to do exactly that, the traps and rhomboids get put into a stretched position. So of course they would respond very well to massive stretch, that's literally what they're designed to do.
>Then why argue that conventional deadlifts train the traps/rhomboids well since you can use extra load? Dog shit brain.
Again, you have no understanding of the implications and effects of lift modifications. I can't use as much weight due to the wide grip and large deficit, but now I have to travel through a much greater range of motion, which completely counteracts the reduced weight since the traps and rhomboids are under load for a much greater duration. And the point is that I can use more weight doing them conventional style compared to RDL style: all the other parameters are the same, I pause at the bottom on both lifts, I use a wide grip on both lifts, and I use a large deficit on both lifts. But the extra weight I can use when I let the knees come forward allows me to get a better trap/rhomboid stimulus, even if the absolute weight is still fairly light: the point is that it's still heavier than what I can use on RDLs with all the other parameters being the same.
>the best data we have on stretch mediated hypertrophy is on the fricking back muscles
Link the data then. All of your posts are just inchorent ramblings and repeating talking points which I've already disproven with actual data.
>All of your posts are just inchorent ramblings and repeating talking points which I've already disproven with actual data.
Disproved what exactly? Your first link (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28834797/) is just talking about how both heavy weight and light weight can build muscle, which I never disagreed with so that doesn't disprove anything. Your second link (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24259779/) just says that more knee flexion = more glutes and less knee flexion = more hamstrings when it comes to hip extension, which I never disagreed with either, so this also doesn't disprove anything. The frick?
>Link the data then.
This article goes over stuff for traps, can't find anything on rhomboids rn https://sandcresearch.medium.com/how-should-we-train-the-trapezius-1075284e05ee
So I am partially incorrect, the traps don't actually experience stretch mediated hypertrophy (probably confused them with the lats since IIRC those do respond very well to it), however if you do some digging there's still reasons why you would aim for the lengthened position
>In practice, the trapezius cannot experience stretch-mediated hypertrophy. Nevertheless, it may suffer from active insufficiency if trained predominantly at short muscle lengths. Therefore, training the trapezius using sustained isometric contractions in the contracted position or pauses (holds) is unlikely to be as effective as working the muscle to a greater extent at longer lengths.
This is the main problem: unlike most other exercises, the back tends to give out in the contracted position instead of the lengthened position. When you fail on a bench press or a squat, you generally fail in the long or mid range position, while when you fail on a pullup or a barbell row, you fail in the shortened position. This is probably why some people get better upper back gains from cheat rows: the momentum from the hips balances out the strength curve for the traps/rhomboids so that it isn't so shortened-biased.
Cont.
And when you think about it, the traps/rhomboids aren't constantly protracted during hip hinge movements: at lockout, your scapula is typically in neutral or even retracted since the bar is pulling straight down, but when you enter the negative, you get forced into scapular protraction due to how heavy the weight is. Which means you're pretty much doing eccentric overload for the traps/rhomboids, even more so than cheat rows for example. It's just another way to hit those muscles: you can do rows to target the shortened position more since that's where the back fails (ideally you would also do lengthened partials to get the lengthened position too), and then you can also do hip hinges for diffuse volume since those will eccentrically overload the traps/rhomboids while also hitting the erectors/glutes/hamstrings. No problem with that since you're going to be doing your hip hinges to hit the posterior chain anyway.
I rest my case
Also
>Snatch grip deadlifts are the worst option to use as the traps will actually experience less force due to that position.
The fibers of the traps actually align better with a snatch grip than a regular grip, so this is false as well. Why do you think everyone advocates for widening the grip if you want to bias the upper back more on hinges? It's for a reason lol
Besides this, again, why use excessive knee bend on RDLs to bias the glutes when you can just do BSS and get much better glute stimulus? Do RDLs for hamstrings and BSS for glutes, simple as
>The fibers of the traps actually align better with a snatch grip than a regular grip, so this is false as well
UH OH the fibers line up so perfectly IT HAS TO BE THE PRIME MOVER IN THE EXERCISE. Prime mover is determined by what has the best leverage at certain joint angles. Muscle fibers perform during stretch and contraction and don't need to be parallel to resistance to produce force.
>Why do you think everyone advocates for widening the grip if you want to bias the upper back more on hinges? It's for a reason lol
Again more anecdotes. Don't care. Doesn't tell my anything. Not proof of anything.
>Besides this, again, why use excessive knee bend on RDLs to bias the glutes when you can just do BSS and get much better glute stimulus? Do RDLs for hamstrings and BSS for glutes, simple as
You can use different movements to train the same musculature. BBS is a good movement for the glutes as well as the quads, especially rectus fermoris. RDL, could be used on a leg day to train the glutes and hamstrings, whilst BBS to train the glutes on a more quad biased leg day. And again an RDL is GLUTE biased. Can't even be bothered to pull up the PMID again
>UH OH the fibers line up so perfectly IT HAS TO BE THE PRIME MOVER IN THE EXERCISE. Prime mover is determined by what has the best leverage at certain joint angles. Muscle fibers perform during stretch and contraction and don't need to be parallel to resistance to produce force.
When did I say they were the primer mover you fricking moron? This is like saying that the erectors aren't involved on squats and deadlifts because they don't move the weight: no shit they aren't moving the weight, but they're still highly involved because they're resisting spinal flexion. Same thing with the traps and rhomboids, except they're working to resist the weight of the bar from ripping your shoulders off
>Again more anecdotes. Don't care. Doesn't tell my anything. Not proof of anything.
Then I can't prove anything since there aren't enough studies on this shit since there's not much incentive to research which movement hits the upper back better lol. But again, you can ask anyone from the science based nerds to the "just lift heavy frickin shit brother" broscientists and they'll both tell you that a wider grip works the upper back more on hip hinges.
>BBS is a good movement for the glutes as well as the quads, especially rectus fermoris.
You're literally proving my point here: the rectus femoris is not the primary mover on BSS (since the front leg does almost all of the work, and the rec fem works on the back leg, not the front leg), but you get some diffuse volume from BSS since it does still undergo tension. I don't use BSS as my main rec fem builder, I use weighted sissy squats for that, but BSS is great in that I can get some diffuse volume to my rectus femoris, allowing me to get away with fewer sets of sissy squats. Same thing here, but with the traps and rhomboids instead. I learnt about diffuse volume very early in my training, this isn't anything revolutionary
Cont
>When did I say they were the primer mover you fricking moron? This is like saying that the erectors aren't involved on squats and deadlifts because they don't move the weight: no shit they aren't moving the weight, but they're still highly involved because they're resisting spinal flexion. Same thing with the traps and rhomboids, except they're working to resist the weight of the bar from ripping your shoulders off
By your logic you should use squats to train the spinal eretors and deadlifts to train the traps and rhomboids. Terrific training regiment. You might as well throw in some extra deadlifts to train the lats while you're at it since they help stabalize the humerus and spine.
>By your logic you should use squats to train the spinal eretors and deadlifts to train the traps and rhomboids.
And now you've worked yourself into a corner, congratulations. You know that people constantly struggle with balancing the spinal erector fatigue from squats with the spinal erector fatigue from deadlifts, right? Clearly the spinal erectors get worked hard from squats, despite the fact that they do not work dynamically. Same thing on deadlifts but to a greater extent due to the greater forward lean and generally heavier loads.
>You might as well throw in some extra deadlifts to train the lats while you're at it since they help stabalize the humerus and spine.
The lats do not get put into a stretched position on deadlifts, so this isn't the same. Some people with really long arms can get ok lat growth since the lats become much more mechanically disadvantaged, but otherwise you won't get much growth if any at all since they don't get stretched that much, they simply act to keep the bar close to the body.
>And again an RDL is GLUTE biased. Can't even be bothered to pull up the PMID again
Holy fricking shit I do not give a shit about your dumbass study that no one cares about. Again, I completely agree that more knee bend = more glutes and less knee bend = more hamstrings, but no one fricking bends their knees on an RDL excessively because that would turn it into a conventional deadlift. SLDLs and RDLs are performed EXACTLY the same way, the only difference is that SLDLs are deadstop while RDLs are not. No other difference, I don't care if they are defined differently in your study because no one in the real world defines them this way. They both hit the glutes, but the hamstrings are generally what gets biased more, and they should be since we have better movements for the glutes anyhow.
>s-source?
Same lift
Real-world example: look at the knee position in both videos, they're in the exact same spot in both cases, meaning that the hinge pattern is the same. The only difference is that he omits the eccentric on SLDLs, he does slightly more ROM on SLDLs since he reverses before touching the floor on RDLs, and he lets the bar drift forward on SLDLs ed coan-style while keeping it over mid-foot instead on RDLs. And of course the SLDLs are deadstop while the RDLs aren't.
And again, look at the joint angles. The hinge pattern is exactly the same. Also video title
?t=50
Literally talks about RDLs being an excellent upper back developer in the first 10 seconds of the video
You're basically trying to argue that an RDL and an SLDL is the same movement. Without kneelfexion in either
there's not a point in making a distinction between the two. Touching of off the floor is not going to bias different
musculature it's just going to make the ROM longer. To most people including me the RDL and SLDL are different movements, an
RDL is in a way more flexed knee position where the glute has more emphasis. Whilst a SLDL is going to emphasis hamstrings more
because there's no knee flexion component. If you had ever done a proper RDL you would know it biases the glutes. I'm not going to watch YouTube videos you provided, since all of them are created by hacks who have no idea what they're talking about. If you follow people like Alpha Destiny, no wonder you belive in things like "stretch mediated hypertrophy" to train the upper back musculature. I'm not going to argue this point anymore. If you want to do hip hinges to train the upper back, even though NOTHING attatched to the scapula does hip extension, go ahead. Dumb people will waaste their time on dumb shit.
>You're basically trying to argue that an RDL and an SLDL is the same movement.
Yes, they are. The only difference is that one is deadstop (more specific to deadlifting off of the floor) and the other isn't. Which is why people use them interchangably. See pic rel, if RDLs were performed with more knee flexion they would be further to the right like conventional deadlifts, but because they aren't they're all the way on the left side with good mornings and SLDLs.
>To most people including me the RDL and SLDL are different movements
Who the frick is "most people"? I have never seen anyone besides you make this distinction. You're entirely alone in this
>RDL is in a way more flexed knee position where the glute has more emphasis
How many times do I have to say this? If you're undergoing lots of knee flexion during an RDL, you are NOT performing an RDL, you're performing a bastardized conventional deadlift.
>since all of them are created by hacks who have no idea what they're talking about.
And you know what you're talking about? Lmao frick off
>If you follow people like Alpha Destiny, no wonder you belive in things like "stretch mediated hypertrophy" to train the upper back musculature.
Okay then you should be able to post body and mog him
>If you want to do hip hinges to train the upper back, even though NOTHING attatched to the scapula does hip extension, go ahead.
How fricking moronic are you dude? You have to hold a (very heavy) bar to do RDLs/SLDLs/deadlifts, and guess what your arms are attached to? YOUR FRICKING SCAPULA YOU DUNCE
number 1 indicator that someone is never going to make it is that they care about deadlifts
Number 1 indicator someone is a dyel twink is they don't deadlift
Lol DL is THE dyel lift, it is the only major compound where you will regularly see complete twigs with no mass lift heavy
It is pretty GOAT for sports where you want to be light and strong, like running
People on this board truly have no idea what they’re talking about
Don’t know why I keep coming here every day
It's not rocket surgery m8. Train hard, eat
probably because you have no idea what you're talking about
Real quick, I do paused snatch grip deadlifts off of a big deficit, but I don't do standard conventional deadlifts. Am I good?
>cbum deadlifts
>ronnie coleman deadlifted
>jay cutler deadlifted
>incel dyel anon says deadlift is bad
All of them were/are roidtrannies. Taking advice from roidgays as a natty is the most imbecile thing you can do.
Pls watch any of cbums back or leg workout vids and link me a period of any of them where he dls frequently
Ronnie Coleman was a moronic bigger roused out of his mind, look at his current status to see how well his training worked out for him
Jay Cutler did not deadlift regularly either
Completely deluded dyel
Black person roided out of*
>Arnold deadlifted, and was a competing powerlifter
>Franco deadlifted, and was a competing powerlifter
That is the hottest FtM I have ever seen. Dont care if it was shopped. God damn.
Do PPL instead, and start with deadlifts on leg day (one leg day dl focused, other squat focused).
It pains me that I had to scroll this far to find someone suggesting this... And pains me even more no one replied. This is the correct answer, have a hamstring/glute leg day and a quad leg day
I do pull push legs, and do deads on my first pull day, then heavy rows on the second, ez pz
Sauce me up bros
its AI
nope i go in the same gym with her in Triest, italy
Please be for real
Eternal coomer
I want to burry my face in her armpit and just fall asleep
you'll get more benefits from stopping coming here
snu snu
Do 45 degree back extensions instead
didn't read
sex with amazonian women
lel
b***h has a better v-tapper than me
>v-tapper
me in high school, if you catch my drift
sauceq