I feel like the narrative about how ancient Greeks were raging homosexuals is greatly exaggerated. To support it we only have a few shards of pottery depicting gay sex without context. The pederasty of men loving teenage boys seems to be very specific to a brief time period in ancient Athens and even then was controversial. The only other evidence is that of the Sacred Band of Thebes but everything we know of them comes from Plutarch who wrote several centuries later and whose account in the Life of Pelopidas seems a little fanciful.
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I'm sure it's exaggerated by LGBT activists to normalize homosexuality and the rest, but it was still significant enough that early Christians wrote about it. The Didache mentions pederasty by name, and in Romans 1, Paul implies that pagans are turned over by God to homosexuality and other deviances for their idolatry.
Of course it's exaggerated. Unless you believe that homosexuality is a choice, there's just no way that 98% of greeks weren't straight as an arrow, just like men today.
Today, in spite of the average guy being disgusted by homosexualry, high culture and politics are full of gays and outright pedos glorifying it. Why would you expect ancient Greece to be different?
>Unless you believe that homosexuality is a choice, there's just no way that 98% of greeks weren't straight as an arrow, just like men today.
Most people are at least straight-leaning, but I think it's an exaggeration to say 98% of people are straight as an arrow. Probably at least half of people have the potential to be at least bicurious. (Just look at how many zoomers identify as some stripe of LGBT- the less social pressure to suppress it, the more people will openly acknowledge it.
Ah yes, all those zoomerettes who say they're bi but eating pussy is disgusting, totally a sign of innate bicuriousity and not at all society pushing homosexualry unto them with more force than anything else they're taught put together, lmao.
We have studies about men reacting with instinctive disgust (we're talking biochemical responses, not answering questions) at homosex. It's 100% wishful thinking of you to believe half of them are bicurious but repressed.
I'm not necessarily saying every single person who says they're bi is, but certainly at least some are. (Also, you know there are plenty of straight men who think eating pussy is gross?)
>but certainly at least some are
There's a pretty fricking massive difference between saying "there are more homosexuals than openly declared" and "there are AT LEAST 25 closeted gays for every flaming homosexual" (>at least half of people have the potential to be at least bicurious).
Don't be disingenuous.
>(Also, you know there are plenty of straight men who think eating pussy is gross?)
I do know that, but these girls just want the clout of saying they're bi, because society praises them for it.
None of them ever engages in lesbian behaviour, most of them don't even pretend to be lesbian to arouse men watching them.
They straight up say it without understanding what it means, it's fricking outrageous. It's also why people are pushing back so hard against progay shit in school, it absolutely DOES groom kids.
>measured penile changes
Well, that's a fricking joke of a study. The reason the other studies go for testing saliva or other chemical markers is that most people invariably show signs of arousal when their genitals are manipulated no matter how nonsexual the situation and how little aroused they feel.
You seem upset.
I accept your concession
this.
Im a literal gay and deal with the same shit with zoomers, on the other side of the problem. im tired of them saying theyre bisexual or the new lingo of "I dont have a sexual label" "I am fluid", "I dont know what will happen tomorrow" and then their sexual history is composed of 99 men with gay orgies and that one becky girl back in highschool that they did not even kiss but parade as a token of not being gay (totally not the exception that proves the rule).
back in my day we just called them closeted gays, now the moment you tell them "you are fricking gay, deal with it" to their faces they act shocked and almost try to "reverse cancel" you. I used to think they were just the typical liars that were keeping their choices open so they could marry a woman in the future to breed (and cheat), but they are unironically so inexperienced with just talking to women that it cannot be that, they will never convince a poor woman
>The pederasty of men loving teenage boys seems to be very specific to a brief time period in ancient Athens and even then was controversial.
Not really. Pederasty was already practiced in multiple locations in the Archaic era (Theognis in Megara, Sappho in Lesbos, Ibycus in Samos, Anacreon in Teos, etc.) and was widespread right through to late Hellenism. Also the picture you posted is a fake. Pic related is an actual homosexual pottery scene.
Most of the evidence you mention relies on the notion that ἐραστής should be translated as "top." If you dismiss that translation then the evidence for the Sacred Band being gay and pederasty referring to child abuse as it does in English falls apart.
ἐραστής is also used to refer to a man when he is in love with a woman. It is also obvious that the Sacred Band of Thebes is based on erotic bonds, considering that Plutarch refers to the myth of the rape of Laius. Xenophon's Socrates brings them up when discussing homosexuality negatively.
We also have evidence from Plato's dialogues.
Plato isn’t a great example since he is anti-sexual love in general. We have Petronius (the major one to bring up in these threads) who although was Roman wrote about the practices brought down from the Greeks. We also have their myths such as Ganymede and Narcissus.
Petronius is a clear slap in the face to anyone who says they were homophobic in antiquity.
>gays make fake art to sell on etsy
>gays take pictures of the fake art and claim it's 2500 years old
>look at how gay the greeks used to be! thanks etsy
lol
The real ones are less palatable to modern sensibilities
>The real ones
so you admit OP is a fake made by homosexuals?
What do you mean "admit" -- I called him out for it here
So there's a movement by gays to make fake gay greek art
It's novelty erotica in an antiquarian style. Also that's the only example I've ever seen. It's not a "movement".
>It's not a "movement".
ah so you're just a disingenuous gay like all gays
Provide more examples of this "movement" then.
>I'm a blind and dumb disingenuous homosexual
yeah
>It's not my job to educate you, chud
Nice concession.
I feel like the amount of times homosexuality has to be discused on this board is greatly exaggerated.
>those two guys fricking each other? Those aren't gay because...THEY JUST AREN'T OKAY? JEEZ
What's really funny is when deniers take all the greek authors condemning homosexuality/pederasty as evidence that it wasn't widespread, which is a bit like taking rants against drunkenness as evidence that people didn't get plastered
The way they quote Plato's Laws is the most egregious example of this
Yeah, Plato was a weirdo totalitarian with hot takes on every aspect of society, from the way women should carry infants (shake them!) to the way greeks should train with their weapons (he advocated for dualwielding "like the scythians")
His regulations for children were the most obviously unhinged, from the communal childrearing thing to insisting that children shouldn't be allowed any other form of fun other than marching to military music in full armor (boys and girls both.)
This in a society that was about as centralized and regimented as Somalia
It depends on how you define widespread. If only 0.5% of men were doing it that would be widespread enough to condemn it in writing, but not so widespread that we must assume that most of the citizen-body would approve of it.
Yeah, I'm sure only 0.5% got drunk too.
I'm not asserting anything, I only pointed out that your argument was entirely compatible with the possibility that such a percentage, or even a mere 0.1% of classical Greek men engaged in sodomy. Maybe there was a polis where all men were "homphobes," and another where sodomites were 20% of the population, who knows?
You guys are morons. Most "straight" men are capable of being homosexual pedophiles in the right circumstances.
I am sure you speak from experience, Mr Kinsey.
Only way to explain why pederasty was so rife in so many different societies.