I mean, it's not that these are bad lifts. That's a great incline bench, imo.
It's just that it isn't an OHP. It's hardly a shoulder exercise at all.
If your goal is to move weight, then go right ahead. If you're specifically seeking shoulder development from doing OHP, then no. This is not good form.
>use the lateral pull machine exactly like the diagram >everybody else who uses the machine is doubling my weight but they're leaning back so they won't engage any meaningful muscles
WHY
That was boring and gay. Wow some ugly homosexual who looks like shit lifted some weight. I’m “seething” Why? What do I have to be jealous of? That ROM?
It is not you moron. This is why eight classes were invented.
Are you mentally challenged?
And the negative movement is as important as the positive. If you can't lower it, you didn't lift it, dyel
2 years ago
Anonymous
>if you can't lower it after you lifted it, you didn't lift it
2 years ago
Anonymous
Truly controlling the weight on the way down requires almost as much work as lifting the weight.
If you don't complete the negative, you haven't completed a rep, simple as.
No amount of cope will make this not true btw. The only one you're hurting by lying is yourself
2 years ago
Anonymous
fake and gay but you do you
2 years ago
Anonymous
Literally no one but you thinks this
2 years ago
Anonymous
exactly moron
chase is stronger in his weight class than you are in yours.
bw multipliers are always bigger the smaller you are.
Show me someone who weights 200kg and is pure muscle, then we can talk about it. Also 600kg would not be impressive if the person is 200kg pure muscle.
The guy in the op struggles with pulling up and drops the weight. It was an ego lift and it was poor.
If you want clout and be impressive, do impressive things. Don't expect fame for beeing mediocre.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Show me someone who weights 200kg and is pure muscle, then we can talk about it. Also 600kg would not be impressive if the person is 200kg pure muscle.
I understand you're clinically moronic, but no strength athlete is 'pure muscle' whatever that is according to your definition. >It was an ego lift and it was poor.
Ah yes, every max effort attempt is just an ego lift. Except yours of course.
2 years ago
Anonymous
There is an actual equation used to determine pound for pound performance you mong
That was boring and gay. Wow some ugly homosexual who looks like shit lifted some weight. I’m “seething” Why? What do I have to be jealous of? That ROM?
>See strong man
That’s your opinion. I see some fat frick. He looks like shit, took way too much fine to prepare then cheered himself as he did a 1 second exercise. Looked like a huge homosexual.
>you have to be insecure to dislike
Cope. I’m not impressed by this homosexual cause this random skinny dude is way stronger and does more than a single rep. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAGK52yfKi0
2 years ago
Anonymous
>bro that dude deadlifting 750lbs is weak watch this video of me I mean some skinny kid deadlifting 350lbs I I mean he is way stronger
2 years ago
Anonymous
Oh I get it, the video is you. You’re the gay ego lifter who is butthurt nobody is impressed.
2 years ago
Anonymous
I don't know the levels of cope possible accusing me of being a guy deadlifting 750lbs with good form and actually thinking that's a bad thing.
2 years ago
Anonymous
With that ROM, that amount of geared he got on and time to prepare for a single rep what room is there for bad form? He moved like 3 inches at most.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Go back to tiktok or instagram, homosexual dyel cookie cutter
2 years ago
Anonymous
Suck a dick homosexual. That was a shitty ass video of a homosexual who took 11 seconds to move 1in then celebrate like a moron.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Why dont you do it then pussy? I know why its cuz you cant. Grow a spine you cuckold.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>why don’t you spend time to prepare to ego lift like a moron? >why don’t you suck dick like me pussy?
No thanks. I do real exercises not spending 5hr at the gym to do 3 deadlifts
2 years ago
Anonymous
What would your bait be if the video was Chase pulling 600x10+?
2 years ago
Anonymous
there's nothing wrong with the ROM homosexual. Its not even sumo.
2 years ago
Anonymous
The ROM for a deadlift sucks you moronic rape baby. Plus he’s got a belt on. It’s half of a real exercise like a clean and press. Just because sumo sucks 2 dicks doesn’t mean the 1 troony dick you’re sucking isn’t gay.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Sounds like a bunch of cope and seethe because he's stronger than you. How much do you deadlift?
2 years ago
Anonymous
0. I don’t deadlift homosexual.
I don’t suck dick but you’re gonna say you’re coping and seething he sucks way more dick than you.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>I don't deadlift
post your weak and frail body
2 years ago
Anonymous
>I don't deadlift
Yeah so you're a weak dyel, cope and seethe. You're jerking off oly lifts too but you probably can't lift shit on those either.
Simmer down powershitters. Take off the squat plug for a second and stop pretending anyone cares about this homosexual deadlifting and by proxy your deadlifts.
2 years ago
Anonymous
No one cares about your weak homosexual opinion. You started seething because you saw a strong person, maybe you should try trying in the gym and you won't be such an insecure homosexual.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>No one cares about your weak homosexual opinion
You do cause you’re replying fat b***h.
2 years ago
Anonymous
I'm calling you a weak homosexual and making fun of you. If you didn't care about this guys deadlift you wouldn't have started sperging out about non-existent hitching, "ROM" and cleans.
2 years ago
Anonymous
You do cause you’re replying fat b***h.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Hahaha look how moronic I am >moron >I was only pretending
2 years ago
Anonymous
>didn’t post body >sucking up to a literal who >at best his homosexual ass is arguing with a DYEL
Wow good job moron.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Didnt post body
Your turn dyel
2 years ago
Anonymous
homie what is that supposed to prove? You posed someone else’s pic. You’re arguing with a DYEL. You lose no matter what. You’re moronic.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>you posted someone else's pic
Cope and seethe, it's me. Die in a fire or post body.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Deadlifts are gay, low ROM and you posting high bf pictures won’t change my mind homosexual. Notice how much effort you moronic ass is putting in, seething at a random anon thinking deadlifts are gay.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Post body, homosexual. Nothing you say matters until you post it. By your own admission you deadlift 0 pounds, so you have no experience to speak on. have a nice day
2 years ago
Anonymous
I won’t homosexual. Your opinion doesn’t mean shit to me. You obvious care what I say cause you’re so butthurt and keep replying.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Maybe don't seethe so hard next thread over people being stronger than you and we won't point out that you're a weakling with zero experience talking out your ass
2 years ago
Anonymous
Nobody besides you is seething, you insecure homosexual. You’re just mad because your opinion is invalid.
2 years ago
Anonymous
You were seething, hence why you started sperging out about his deadlift. Your opinion is worthless, you're a non. Body posting dyel who deadlifts the bar lololol
2 years ago
Anonymous
Nice negative internal dialog insecure ass b***h. My opinion is valid and it’s why you’re so mad.
2 years ago
Anonymous
moron
2 years ago
Anonymous
Thanks for your worthless opinion you gay T. rex.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Okay DYEL
2 years ago
Anonymous
those pyjamas are always worn by men with great pps, post pp
2 years ago
Anonymous
>I don't deadlift
Yeah so you're a weak dyel, cope and seethe. You're jerking off oly lifts too but you probably can't lift shit on those either.
You forgot >I-i bet I could beat him in unarmed combat >well if he got jumped by guys with knives, he wouldn't be so tough then would he, h-haha >wel he couldn't defend against a bullet. Check and mate >I bet he's got a tiny penis >and is gay >in 30 years well both be old and wrinkly, but every large muscle on his body represents a language he didn't learn, a poem he didn't read, or a cool fact he didn't memorise
it seems like some people are impervious to herniated disk. and some people will get them even with good form.
i hurt myself starting out on OHP a few years ago ; lower back from just the same bend. of course now i do it correctly and love this lift; i alternate between bb OHP and db bench one day and db OHP and bb bench on the other.
but some people can use bad form and backs will never snap.
People wear a belt, usually a very stiff on, when they do this for a reason. Aside from bracing, a stiff belt will get pinched between your back and ass shelf and take load off of your lumbar spine by essentially acting as a strut.
Yes. It's essential to the lift once you start adding serious weight. You need to use everything to get it over head. If you want to test how strong your shoulders and nothing else are just use dumb bells and sit down to do it. No one gives a shit how strong just their shoulders are though. It's not really controversial at all, the lift was done that way since it's inception.
not the guy you replied to but at the same time when he has that much tilt no one gives a frick how much he is "over head pressing" since it is more of a standing incline bench. The weight is impressive, yes. I agree with you that some tilt is needed once you reach serious weight but that angle he has is ridiculous.
Here is a good mog for comparison. And yes it is a gold medal olympian but check the full video there are a bunch of strong russians strict pressing over 100 kg.
No. In a strict ohp you should only move your head back enough to get it out of the way of the bar path. That doesn’t mean he’s not strong as frick though.
>video where he literally did a push press,with layback
its his 405 one that gets posted ist it?, its still not a full on push like a weightlifting one. or am i missing a full blown push press to layback?
is it actually better than no hips bullshit press for strength/hypertrophy ?
2 years ago
Anonymous
>is using your lower body to so most the lift better for hypertrophy
no. there is no point in doing this other than to increase his gimmick OHP. His bench and his "The Press" being the same weight ahows you that its not really good for developing upperbody mass or strength
https://www.instagram.com/p/BpC_-MCA-9u/
2 years ago
Anonymous
ikr, the fact that he's using his hips and momentum so much only means he's egolifting
2 years ago
Anonymous
>egolifting
i hope so. he could use it as marketing because he is the poster child of starting strength, but i don't think they use him that much anymore.
from my understanding Chase doesn't even compete or anything - no reason to ego lift and do what is essentially a subpar chest extercise instead of either properly doing an incline bench or doing OHP for shoulders. This is only posted for ego.
He has only done rippetoe meets, which aren't drug tested. Last was Rippetoe's Press, Snatch, C&J meet.
He has trained a lot of weightlifting for someone who doesn't do or plan to do USAW meets or some other thing like hammer throw.
OHP is valid in strongman because they allow push presses, strict OHP always ends up being a leaning standing bench press.
Push press is where it's at.
>There is an idea of a bench press, some kind of abstraction...but there is no real bench, only an entity something illusory and although i can hide my shoulder pain and you sense my core being engaged and maybe even our back arches are probably comparable, there's simply no bench
Do you think that's particularly hard or something for anyone who is reasonably strong? How weak are you that you couldn't do a front rack hold with 180kg for 10 seconds?
Okay so you can unrack and hold it so easily. Now bounce it, use every ounce of leg drive you have, cheat all you can and press it overhead. Must be easy right?
that's one of the worst forms of any lift I have seen in my entire life. It is not a OHP, it is literally bench press. Or more accurately, chest press from a rack.
standing bench press
Yes.
I mean, it's not that these are bad lifts. That's a great incline bench, imo.
It's just that it isn't an OHP. It's hardly a shoulder exercise at all.
If your goal is to move weight, then go right ahead. If you're specifically seeking shoulder development from doing OHP, then no. This is not good form.
virgin shoulder developer vs chad OHPer
that guy is fat, his tilt is way less dramatic than OP
cool standing incline bench press
Alright, I'm convinced.
OHP should be done with dumbbells so that no one has any excuse to lean back.
>use the lateral pull machine exactly like the diagram
>everybody else who uses the machine is doubling my weight but they're leaning back so they won't engage any meaningful muscles
WHY
It's cheating and it'll bite you in the ass when your spine snaps one day.
Correct.
Seethe DYEL
>straps
>hitching
0lbs pulled from the floor
literally 0 hitching you homosexual dyel
men acting like females damn, you hate to see it
Literally where, he hyperextended his low back but that isn’t hitching and straps don’t matter this is training not comp
Hitching? Summer arrived
how much is he pulling? looks impressive 2bh
>https://twitter.com/SS_strength/status/1532888037193023488?cxt=HHwWgICwlYvj9MUqAAAA
Chase pulling 730x1 at 250 BW. Smoothly. Almost 3x bodyweight.
How is this impressive? I was pulling 245kg at 80kg bw and did not cheat on the negative.
3x bw as an ant and 3x bw as a 250lbs beast are 2 different things homosexual.
Also negative cheat on deadlift are you fricking moronic. You 100% didn't deadlift 245.
It is not you moron. This is why eight classes were invented.
Are you mentally challenged?
And the negative movement is as important as the positive. If you can't lower it, you didn't lift it, dyel
>if you can't lower it after you lifted it, you didn't lift it
Truly controlling the weight on the way down requires almost as much work as lifting the weight.
If you don't complete the negative, you haven't completed a rep, simple as.
No amount of cope will make this not true btw. The only one you're hurting by lying is yourself
fake and gay but you do you
Literally no one but you thinks this
exactly moron
chase is stronger in his weight class than you are in yours.
bw multipliers are always bigger the smaller you are.
It doesn't scale linearly. Otherwise someone weighing 200kg should easily be able to pull 600kg.
Show me someone who weights 200kg and is pure muscle, then we can talk about it. Also 600kg would not be impressive if the person is 200kg pure muscle.
The guy in the op struggles with pulling up and drops the weight. It was an ego lift and it was poor.
If you want clout and be impressive, do impressive things. Don't expect fame for beeing mediocre.
>Show me someone who weights 200kg and is pure muscle, then we can talk about it. Also 600kg would not be impressive if the person is 200kg pure muscle.
I understand you're clinically moronic, but no strength athlete is 'pure muscle' whatever that is according to your definition.
>It was an ego lift and it was poor.
Ah yes, every max effort attempt is just an ego lift. Except yours of course.
There is an actual equation used to determine pound for pound performance you mong
>MUH RATIOS MUH STRENGTH TO WEIGHT
The monkey limbed deadlifter seethes eternally for his bench and OHP will forever remain weak
Nobody is seething. Nobody cares about this literal who or finds it special. The only reason you’re butthurt is cause you’re fatter and weaker
Consult a wilks calculator, moron
That was boring and gay. Wow some ugly homosexual who looks like shit lifted some weight. I’m “seething” Why? What do I have to be jealous of? That ROM?
>See strong man
>"W-Well he's not that big!"
>"I bet he can't run 5 miles!"
>"L-Let's see him do gymnastics moves!"
>See strong man
That’s your opinion. I see some fat frick. He looks like shit, took way too much fine to prepare then cheered himself as he did a 1 second exercise. Looked like a huge homosexual.
Sounds more like you're insecure and coping. That's an objectively impressive lift. Guy's like 260 and massive, just not lean
>you have to be insecure to dislike
Cope. I’m not impressed by this homosexual cause this random skinny dude is way stronger and does more than a single rep. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAGK52yfKi0
>bro that dude deadlifting 750lbs is weak watch this video of me I mean some skinny kid deadlifting 350lbs I I mean he is way stronger
Oh I get it, the video is you. You’re the gay ego lifter who is butthurt nobody is impressed.
I don't know the levels of cope possible accusing me of being a guy deadlifting 750lbs with good form and actually thinking that's a bad thing.
With that ROM, that amount of geared he got on and time to prepare for a single rep what room is there for bad form? He moved like 3 inches at most.
Go back to tiktok or instagram, homosexual dyel cookie cutter
Suck a dick homosexual. That was a shitty ass video of a homosexual who took 11 seconds to move 1in then celebrate like a moron.
Why dont you do it then pussy? I know why its cuz you cant. Grow a spine you cuckold.
>why don’t you spend time to prepare to ego lift like a moron?
>why don’t you suck dick like me pussy?
No thanks. I do real exercises not spending 5hr at the gym to do 3 deadlifts
What would your bait be if the video was Chase pulling 600x10+?
there's nothing wrong with the ROM homosexual. Its not even sumo.
The ROM for a deadlift sucks you moronic rape baby. Plus he’s got a belt on. It’s half of a real exercise like a clean and press. Just because sumo sucks 2 dicks doesn’t mean the 1 troony dick you’re sucking isn’t gay.
Sounds like a bunch of cope and seethe because he's stronger than you. How much do you deadlift?
0. I don’t deadlift homosexual.
I don’t suck dick but you’re gonna say you’re coping and seething he sucks way more dick than you.
>I don't deadlift
post your weak and frail body
Simmer down powershitters. Take off the squat plug for a second and stop pretending anyone cares about this homosexual deadlifting and by proxy your deadlifts.
No one cares about your weak homosexual opinion. You started seething because you saw a strong person, maybe you should try trying in the gym and you won't be such an insecure homosexual.
>No one cares about your weak homosexual opinion
You do cause you’re replying fat b***h.
I'm calling you a weak homosexual and making fun of you. If you didn't care about this guys deadlift you wouldn't have started sperging out about non-existent hitching, "ROM" and cleans.
You do cause you’re replying fat b***h.
>Hahaha look how moronic I am
>moron
>I was only pretending
>didn’t post body
>sucking up to a literal who
>at best his homosexual ass is arguing with a DYEL
Wow good job moron.
>Didnt post body
Your turn dyel
homie what is that supposed to prove? You posed someone else’s pic. You’re arguing with a DYEL. You lose no matter what. You’re moronic.
>you posted someone else's pic
Cope and seethe, it's me. Die in a fire or post body.
Deadlifts are gay, low ROM and you posting high bf pictures won’t change my mind homosexual. Notice how much effort you moronic ass is putting in, seething at a random anon thinking deadlifts are gay.
Post body, homosexual. Nothing you say matters until you post it. By your own admission you deadlift 0 pounds, so you have no experience to speak on. have a nice day
I won’t homosexual. Your opinion doesn’t mean shit to me. You obvious care what I say cause you’re so butthurt and keep replying.
Maybe don't seethe so hard next thread over people being stronger than you and we won't point out that you're a weakling with zero experience talking out your ass
Nobody besides you is seething, you insecure homosexual. You’re just mad because your opinion is invalid.
You were seething, hence why you started sperging out about his deadlift. Your opinion is worthless, you're a non. Body posting dyel who deadlifts the bar lololol
Nice negative internal dialog insecure ass b***h. My opinion is valid and it’s why you’re so mad.
moron
Thanks for your worthless opinion you gay T. rex.
Okay DYEL
those pyjamas are always worn by men with great pps, post pp
>I don't deadlift
Yeah so you're a weak dyel, cope and seethe. You're jerking off oly lifts too but you probably can't lift shit on those either.
Ok nice bait. See ya
You forgot
>I-i bet I could beat him in unarmed combat
>well if he got jumped by guys with knives, he wouldn't be so tough then would he, h-haha
>wel he couldn't defend against a bullet. Check and mate
>I bet he's got a tiny penis
>and is gay
>in 30 years well both be old and wrinkly, but every large muscle on his body represents a language he didn't learn, a poem he didn't read, or a cool fact he didn't memorise
homie I’m not reading all that gay cope. Learn to write. I’m not impressed with that gay video.
for some reason I thought he was gonna overhead press it and I freaked out a little bit
me too I'm always braced for a barbell paralyzing these poor frickers with cameras
Legit thought he was going to dislocate both kneecaps on the way down
> this is your brain on SS
That's close to 150kg isn't it
To move that ridiculous amount of weight, I guess so
if you do this you will get a herniated disk
it seems like some people are impervious to herniated disk. and some people will get them even with good form.
i hurt myself starting out on OHP a few years ago ; lower back from just the same bend. of course now i do it correctly and love this lift; i alternate between bb OHP and db bench one day and db OHP and bb bench on the other.
but some people can use bad form and backs will never snap.
People wear a belt, usually a very stiff on, when they do this for a reason. Aside from bracing, a stiff belt will get pinched between your back and ass shelf and take load off of your lumbar spine by essentially acting as a strut.
>hurt back from doing it like guy in OP
no wonder because it's a shit moronic form.
If you actually care about long term gains and hitting the intended muscle: No.
If all you care about is having a high OHP 1RM: Yes.
>Black person
What did he mean by this
A Black person motor doesn't slow the car down. I'm going to have to ruminate on this one. What a puzzling statement.
Incredible
Yes. It's essential to the lift once you start adding serious weight. You need to use everything to get it over head. If you want to test how strong your shoulders and nothing else are just use dumb bells and sit down to do it. No one gives a shit how strong just their shoulders are though. It's not really controversial at all, the lift was done that way since it's inception.
not the guy you replied to but at the same time when he has that much tilt no one gives a frick how much he is "over head pressing" since it is more of a standing incline bench. The weight is impressive, yes. I agree with you that some tilt is needed once you reach serious weight but that angle he has is ridiculous.
Here is a good mog for comparison. And yes it is a gold medal olympian but check the full video there are a bunch of strong russians strict pressing over 100 kg.
in that it may not even go into his lower back, he's doing mostly an upper arch
that shit cannot be good for your back
ohp is the one exercise that if im not doing a strict rep im not doing it all
frick that
I don't know but when I do OHP the right way my lower back hurts, I think I just have inferior genetics. Squat, dead lift no problem, OHP fricks me.
use a belt, shrug at the top.
No. In a strict ohp you should only move your head back enough to get it out of the way of the bar path. That doesn’t mean he’s not strong as frick though.
It's good form for a press, which is what he's doing
No
Please make a thread with his incline push presses. Now that shit is insane
That is one of them. I don't think chase can even press 2.5pl8 without using gimmicks to get the bar up in the air
>barely any hips
>all fricking hips
>bunch of fricking layback
https://www.instagram.com/p/CLX36QEgk1O/
the sooner people realize that Rippetoe and the people associated with are frauding snakeoil salesman, the better people will be
I mean the one video where he literally did a push press,with layback. That's what I'm talking about
>video where he literally did a push press,with layback
its his 405 one that gets posted ist it?, its still not a full on push like a weightlifting one. or am i missing a full blown push press to layback?
>full blown push press to layback?
Yes. Check his insta. 3x3 layback push press with 160kg
so what is the point here exactly?
muh ohp
is it actually better than no hips bullshit press for strength/hypertrophy ?
>is using your lower body to so most the lift better for hypertrophy
no. there is no point in doing this other than to increase his gimmick OHP. His bench and his "The Press" being the same weight ahows you that its not really good for developing upperbody mass or strength
https://www.instagram.com/p/BpC_-MCA-9u/
ikr, the fact that he's using his hips and momentum so much only means he's egolifting
>egolifting
i hope so. he could use it as marketing because he is the poster child of starting strength, but i don't think they use him that much anymore.
that's some kind of spine-breaker move?
>competition?
It’s fine
>hypertophy?
Obviously not
the layback isn't as much of an issue as actively using it to pop the bar up and reduce ROM by half
It's called lifting something heavy you obsessed homosexual. Post yourself repping 135. Just 135
Rippetoe pls go
from my understanding Chase doesn't even compete or anything - no reason to ego lift and do what is essentially a subpar chest extercise instead of either properly doing an incline bench or doing OHP for shoulders. This is only posted for ego.
He has only done rippetoe meets, which aren't drug tested. Last was Rippetoe's Press, Snatch, C&J meet.
He has trained a lot of weightlifting for someone who doesn't do or plan to do USAW meets or some other thing like hammer throw.
This is why ohp will never be considered part of strength competitions or be used as a test for upper body strength in different sport tryouts.
OHP is valid in strongman because they allow push presses, strict OHP always ends up being a leaning standing bench press.
Push press is where it's at.
>There is an idea of a bench press, some kind of abstraction...but there is no real bench, only an entity something illusory and although i can hide my shoulder pain and you sense my core being engaged and maybe even our back arches are probably comparable, there's simply no bench
Implying anyone itt could even unrack 405lbs and hold it in a front squat
Do you think that's particularly hard or something for anyone who is reasonably strong? How weak are you that you couldn't do a front rack hold with 180kg for 10 seconds?
Yea. I know your homosexual ass can’t do it
post body, homosexual.
Okay so you can unrack and hold it so easily. Now bounce it, use every ounce of leg drive you have, cheat all you can and press it overhead. Must be easy right?
I don't think it's easy, I think it's stupid because the press was always a stupid lift.
Ive OHPed 410lbs
What is your weight?
a lot
cracked.
Is it true you only jerk it to anime bunnies? Or did your trip get cracked?
>I've OHP'd .75 bw
Good job 9.
>made up bw numbers
kek, we all know who this is.
Nineball's 410lbs is 1.1x bw, which is more than the resident PLG copelord who can't even press LMAO2PL8
Sorry I'm not gay and don't go to bloatlord general.
Is he natty because that is insane lol
Believe so, having seen how he looks in person and him talking about it with rip on a podcast. Also has type 1 beetus
He's not natty because insulin is an exogenous hormone (right?) and gives him a big advantage. Still unreal strength
that's one of the worst forms of any lift I have seen in my entire life. It is not a OHP, it is literally bench press. Or more accurately, chest press from a rack.
Heels off the ground anyway......doesn't count.