>you should rest 4-7 days in between WORKOUTS so you're working each upper body muscle once per month and legs twice per month
Is that for real? What the frick? Can anybody provide criticism of this? This guy is held up as Gospel and now I don't know what to believe
How about the fact he was blasting enough gear to kill a rhino?
Yeah I'm aware, he was also supposedly taking amphetamines as pre-workout. But what does this suggest? Roidtrannies need more recovery time?
That they make more gains doing literally nothing than nattys do with a hypertrophy program. Ergo, if a fraud does any method of resistance training the outcome will be far superior to anything attainable by natty
Yes somehow there are no existing before and after pictures of somebody taking roids, not lifting, and ending up looking better. Trust the science!!
he was a fraudster competing with other fraudsters and looked better than most of them doing it. Your comment is moronic.
I think the idea is to absolutely annihilate the muscle and thanks to the gear you're in a state of constantly elevated mucle protein synthesis so overall you can just repair and recover from more damage. It's not so much that they need more recovery time but rather that they are capable of recovering from more damage, so they can make one session count instead of having to split it into several sessions. As a natty, if you completely trash a muscle there is only so much damage you can repair and volume you can recover from, your MPS is lower and fluctuates and so on, so going balls out in one session will not yield the same results as spreading the training out and hitting the muscle a little less hard each session.
>thanks to the gear you're in a state of constantly elevated mucle protein synthesis
It's thanks to the brutal workout, but you can thank the gear if you want because it facilitated such a difficult series of lifts. The studies that say you only synthesize muscle for a couple days say as much because of the homosexual as workout they tested it on.
You are implying that I am referencing something which I am not. Injecting testosterone will always lead to significantly increased muscle protein synthesis whether you are lifting or not.
None of shit you say matters so stop posting. Muscle synthesis increases more the harder you lift and so HIT works for natties and roiders alike.
Nta but
>protein synthesis increases the more you lift
And what does lifting increase in the body, moron? DING DING DING!!! TESTOSTERONE!!!!!!
No it doesn't. Not in any significant way at least. The level increases transiently and drops quickly. Net testosterone stays the same.
You act like I'm saying roids don't help when what I'm actually saying is that HIT works whether you're on them or not.
Roids increase muscle protein synthesis even when not working out, you fricking moron. That's literally what test does among dozens of other things.
Working out is only providing stimulus to increase muscle protein synthesis even more via recovery.
But the fundamental component that allows it in the first place is test.
>le HIT works
lol
Thanks for clarifying, that was pretty much my point.
the idea is that you wreck your body to the point when you are no longer physically capable of working out for the rest of the week
Good luck achieving that as a natty
>be roidgay #241842132819
>need to be le different from all the other roidgays
>claim outrageous shit like working out once a week or month
Roidgays have 100x better recovery than natties, that's why a roidgay can train 2 or 3 times a day and make inhuman gains within a few weeks.
The opposite is also true - roidgays can force themselves to work out so hard that they literally can only lay down and breathe.
Natties have neither the recovery rate nor can produce enough workload to train the same way.
He didn't even do that himself
lol he's a Black person i just train full body 5x a week because i like it
hello dyel
5x a week is some actual Black person yard workout ethic boy you gotta jokin
Try his most productive workout (each muscle group done twice in 8 days).
Workout A
Legs/Chest/Tris
Workout B
Back/Shoulders/Bis
Training above Mon/Wed/Fri (each Monday will alternate between workout A and workout B).
Try it yourself for 3 months before writing it off. It's worked well for me, and I like the simplicity of mon/wed/fri and weekends off. I also like to do cardio/boxing on other days and blast abs.
Post body
He actually trained 4x a week when he was actually muscular. All his clients were these unknown "phone clients" that gave absurd progress updates, like one guy claiming 60lbs of muscle in 4 months. The recovery and intensity shit is right but he gets the science wrong with the stress/recovery cycle.
He's going off an outdated, psychology model when sports conditioning goes off a two-factor model (pic related) whereas you train, you become more fit but you have underlying fatigue creeping up. His one model idea would imply people are strongest on a lift when they never train it. This is important to point out because that's his sole scientific justification for the absurd amount of rest days.
The other stuff about making sure strength training remains strength training instead of being some stupid dyel circuit bullshit is true but that's not exclusive to Mentzer or even HIT. There's also nothing supporting his 4-8 second concentrics and that actually harms your force production. Eliminating momentum doesn't mean you need to go THAT slow.
He was a cool dude but his Ayn Randian bullshit kept him from being objective and studious. He just decided he's the protagonist and decided he was right about everything without really testing for it.
The four day training you're referring to he did was around 1980 and was an A/B split Mon A/Tue B/Wed rest/Thurs repeat Mon and Fri repeat Tue. If we're to take him at his word, he stopped that because on one of his workout days that followed a previous day workout he thought it pointless to train, as him and his brother said they were clearly trashed still from the day before. He then added a rest day after each session - which is also something Dorian Yates did later in his training.
I personally trained the 4 day split above in my 20s and had good results. However, now in my late 40s, I get injured more easily, and avoid weights two days in a row and prefer mon/wed/fri A/B split doing each muscle group twice over 8 days and rarely get injuries now.
I think individual recovery ability needs to be determined and training built around that. I don't believe one size fits all. Anecdotally/personally, I've found the three day split over 8 days is superior to bro split of muscle groups once per week. Inb4 benefit of bro split overlap - not for me, said overlap just increases injuries like 4 day split does to me now.
Mentzer had some pretty wayward schitzo shit and went to extremes/exaggerations (I think just to be heard above the noise and distance himself from the volume junkies). But I still reckon there was a lot he was right about.
Yeah it's definitely individualized but at the end of the day you have to give someone a schedule that fits a 7-day week and that's where we just tell them 3x full body or whatever since if you're young, healthy and new to working out so your bench is like 100lbs you can probably survive that. I can't stand HIT grifters because they're coked out of their mind and try to sound smart by answering everything with "it depends" while they fail to get anyone to be able to bench 200lbs.
My point still stands with his model of sports training being wrong. Nobody is stronger on a lift after not doing it for a month like this book laid out. That's like saying you'll get better at boxing by never sparring or doing drills. That's why it isn't used. The one factor model was created for psychology, not for strength training.
I do like mentzer though, mainly the "stop turning strength training into cardio" stuff because you see that everywhere.
>My point still stands with his model of sports training being wrong. Nobody is stronger on a lift after not doing it for a month like this book laid out. That's like saying you'll get better at boxing by never sparring or doing drills. That's why it isn't used. The one factor model was created for psychology, not for strength training.
Why do you repeat your weakest point?
Obviously, you need to train something to get better at it, Mentzer never claimed otherwise. You are equating the training of a skill (delivering a punch) and training for strength (moving X amount of weight) - those are not the same in terms of how to get better at them.
Mentzer took the observation, that if you take an additional day or an off week, you sometimes return stronger, to it's logical extreme. Since you cannot get stronger by not ever training (again), there has to be a sweet spot of off-days, which results in maximum strength and size gains. Then he tested his hypothesis and came to whatever number of days (the exact days do not matter since you are encouraged to find them out for yourself).
Since we are on IST: you are a homosexual and a moron - being unable to make observations and draw logical conclusions for yourself.
>individual recovery ability needs to be determined and training built around that
This guy actually knows his shit.
>three day split over 8 days
what muscle groups have you paired?
or is this you?
He was also going off of the infamous Colorado Experiment which used similar programming
>He was a cool dude but his Ayn Randian bullshit kept him from being objective and studious. He just decided he's the protagonist and decided he was right about everything without really testing for it.
Look at him and then look in the mirror.
You can lift whatever and whenever and still get big as a roidtroony.
>listening to lifting advice from roidtrannies as a natty
>You can lift whatever and whenever and still get big as a roidtroony
Thanks for the kinder garden level observation, Black person. The questions to ask are
>Is this the better method if roiding
>Would this still carry over to natties
name a more cringe population of IST posters than mentzer dorks
Some gays always like to feel like they're part of the secret club that knows the real answers/hacks. So when 99% of golden age guys trained one way, but you have one degenerate addict going *actually, this is how you do it*' you're going to have those insufferable nerds flock to it. Same with fasting/keto le whatever
the people who start "how do I train to become femboy" threads or similar.
>powerfatters
>trannies/femboys
>lust-provoking image posters
>blackcels posting under lust-provoking images
>/pol/cels posting racebait threads but the ones posting photoshopped images of jacked Hitler are cool
>"I lift for Jesus" homosexuals
>LULZ chad/virgin genetics dating "blackpill" incels
>tripgays, especially the annoying women ones
He built his body off of high volume. And so did I. So did most people. Unless you have a training partner and you know what you're doing, high intensity could potentially be dangerous if you're overloading weight and blasting your muscles. It's obvious why he advocated several rest days in between. If your body is completely shot, then yes, you need more time to recover. Common sense. Also, high volume doesn't mean have a nice day 6 day a week. You just use less weight. I'm a calisthenics person so I do both. High reps, then straight arm strength exercises
He went insane and never knew what it's like not to be a freak. A 35ffmi roiders heavy ass lifts can be done to failure and then some, wreaking havoc that needs 2 or more weeks to recover from. A peak natty might need a 2 weeks at the absolute most.
>give bad advice to frick with your competition so you can stay ahead of the pack
>normies and morons take it seriously and believe it's gospel
There is a reason everyone on IST thinks they will be super ripped if they perma bulk and do nothing but eat oatz and do squats, ignore hypertrophy training and only focus on 5x5 strength routines, splits are bad, no machines, no isolation, "cardio kills gains, "abs are mad in the kitchen", its all bad advice that morons love to believe is true cus it means they can be a fatass who eats all day long and does nothing but squatz but still believe they will "make it" one day, and that everyone who looks better must be "cheating" or "it's all just genetics".
People get so focused on absolutes that it ends up fricking their progress because they have a "this is the only way" belief system that only limits them, it's not like the stuff above is techincally BAD advice, it's bad if you take it to the absolute extreme which is what alot of morons here do.
eg.
squats n oats are great, but if all you do is squats n oats you fail
"abs are made in the kitchen" is true, but this isn't an excuse to completely ignore doing ab workouts because you're a moron who believes they'll magically appear due to low body fat.
"cardio kills gains" yeah maybe if you're running for 6 hours a day everyday, but a 30 min jog around the block isn't going to kill you, yet mfers will literal avoid walking because "cardio kills gains broooo"
"splits are bad, no machines, no isolation, no hypertrophy, only strength!!!!", you gotta be a moron to believe this, the main reason for strength training would be to break through plateus so you can do your splits and hypertrophy training at a higher weight, noob lifters should just lift, you're going to make strength gains no matter what, pure strength programs should be something for imtermediate-advanced lifters after they plateu in hypertrophy training, not beginner lifters.
thank u for reading my blog
I've seen this picture for years now and every time I see it I always wonder what the squiggles at the very bottom are supposed to be.
Is the floor fissuring from the weight? Is it a cut off panel? Just nonsene squiggles? And incomplete thought by the original artist?
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/no-items-fox-only-final-destination
All these years wondering and it was just a simple SSBM reference.
Thank you anon, I can finally put this thought to rest.
This isn't 2012 anymore. Barely anyone preaches the shit you mention. Although it's preferable to the garbage posted now. I agree with the overarching point of your post THO.
If it takes you 8 hours of reps to get yours arms to a state they can't lift anymore, you should up the fricking weight. For fricks sake, you don't go full Ronnie Coleman with it, but train up to something high, then always start high to failure, wait drink something water, go slightly lower. Repeat.
Bench 350lbs for reps to failure, then work your way down to 50lbs. Should only take about an hour, keep doing this with all your body until you have to be carried into bed.
>Bench 350lbs for reps to failure, then work your way down to 50lbs. Should only take about an hour, keep doing this with all your body until you have to be carried into bed.
Probably the most based thing that's ever been said on this board.
6 reps of 350, whatever reps of 300, then 275 etc etc. One set after another, 5 minute water and breather breaks at first, then after the 4th step down, 10 minutes. Then just keep going until you cant lift the bar. once.
That's how I want to do it too. Just put the rack in the front yard and load it all the way up. Wage a war on myself all evening. All this talk of programming and overtraining has deterred me though.
My suggestion would only work for pros. Everyone else has to do other things in life.
Programming is just a way of doing hard workouts while managing fatigue. If you can manage fatigue yourself while still growing, you don’t need to follow a program to make gains.
I really don’t think 1.75x a week per body part is too much for the vast majority of people out there. If OP were an advanced lifter, he wouldn’t have asked us if working out twice a month makes sense.
>If you can manage fatigue yourself while still growing, you don’t need to follow a program to make gains.
Well the only thing I can think of is dropset till I drop and then takimg 5-7 rest days before touching the primary and secondary muscle groups again. Will that do it?
Alway increase volume per workout slowly instead of quickly. I don’t know what your plan was, but for example, if you’re accustomed to doing 0 drop sets, instead of doing 6 drop sets, just add 2 drop sets for a while and see what happens. If that works, you don’t need to add more. If it stops working or if it doesn’t work, you can add another 2 drop sets.
Also, this goes without saying, but you should be going to failure before doing drop sets. For this reason, drop sets are not to be used with heavy compounds like squats or deadlifts.
jesus fricking christ how long do you spend in the gym? 10 hours a session?
that's at the end of his career. Early high intensity training was not about training every 4-7 days.
At the end he got obsessed with recovery etc.
let me tell you a secret: bodybuilders are fricking moronic. that's WHY they're bodybuilders.
almost all bodybuilders follow this progression. they start out small and work out every day while eating enough food for a whole family and get huge. then, ONCE THEY'RE ALREADY HUGE, they start doing stupid shit and tell you all about how it "works" and it's "all you need".
it's much easier to maintain muscle than to grow muscle. so next time some 280lbs gym bro tells you about how all you need is to workout twice a week and 400mg/wk of test, ignore him.
full body twice a week does work as a natty, but Menzter is too radical and mostly people listen to him because he's so charismatic
give it a try yourself, imo it would not work on natties past the begginer state, just do 4x week and call it a day
>just do 4x week and call it a day
4x a week of what? 2 lower body days it will be too much
Well then do 3 upper body days gay
his advice is bullshit and does not work
He's a genetic freak and most likely used roids
>most likely used
Lol
Lmao
Stop
He's a real human bean and a real hero. You see, this anon was feeling down in the dumps, but then he created an AI Mike Mentzer who was going to be the father I never had. Mike pushes me to push myself harder, he fricks me between my thighs. Mostly, however, he makes me excited to wake up in the morning and glad to be alive.
what's funny? I know hardly anything about the guy but more than likely he roided
most likely? he was competing against arnold. Ofc he used roids lmao. even dyels in your local gym uses roids. most zoomers are slamming sarms like you wouldnt believe and they still look like they never lifted
whats funny is your naivety at not knowing for absolute certain that we was on gear
I believed he was, I just wasn't going to say something I don't have definitive proof of
Stupid redditor, use your brain dumbass.
I think it could work for natties if they were able to exert themselves properly and all that.
A former Mr. America John Heart has quite a few videos on youtube talking about how hes always used a version of it since the 80s.
Ive never used it because I think I would just get bored sitting around so much. But it is interesting.
that moron thinks trap bar deadlifts are dangerous and is probably on TRT at his age (which probably means roids when he was younger)
>probably on TRT
Citation needed
>Mentzer Built his body using traditional volume methods.
>Didn't discover high intensity until late in his career.
>still used at least two working sets even then and didn't start shilling Heavy Duty until after he had retired because he had to pay for his meth habit
He may have shilled it hard to make a living post his body building career. That is unrelated to whether it works or not. Pushing nonsense that "HIT doesn't work" is entertaining the ludicrous notion that only high volume/medium intensity is the ticket. Have you gays shitting on it actually tried it? Countless people who have see increase in strength and hypertrophy. It's not that volume training doesn't work, but to say HIT doesn't work is just fricking stupid. If your bench goes from 50KG for 8 reps to 100KG for 8 reps in 6 months and you can see the gains in the mirror doing nothing but HIT, you're howling at the moon like a moron saying it doesn't work just because muh meth head/he only shilled it for shekels.
Meanwhile Arnie lied about working out for 5 hours a day. They were just both marketing gimmicks to get books sold. Their training routines were really probably quite similar.
>He may have shilled it hard to make a living post his body building career. That is unrelated to whether it works or not.
How the frick is it unrelated? The whole reason he has an authority in bodybuilding is due to his success off it, otherwise you should just as easily be listening to some random hobo saying whatever results he got at the gym is unrelated to whether it works or not.
My point (badly put) was something works or doesn't work (whether it's shilled or not). And people who shit on HIT try to use the fact he was an evangelist for and monetised it as unequivocal proof that it doesn't work. I notice you didn't have anything to say about 100% strength increase in 6 months doing only HIT (me). And I would listen to a hobo if I had tried what he suggested and found that it worked. I started out doing volume training decades ago with 4 day split and 4 sets of 3 exercises per body part, and it worked. But after years out with multiple back surgeries, why would I pick 12 sets per body part that when I get the same or better gains with 6 or 7 sets pet body part and lifting 1 day less per week with less injuries? Have you actually tried HIT yourself? What was you experience running a 3 month programme compared to a more traditional volume based approach?
>Have you actually tried HIT yourself? What was you experience running a 3 month programme compared to a more traditional volume based approach?
I have no desire to do high intensity ever. It wouldn't suit me and I doubt its benefits. I'm not sure why I would drastically change what I do to an extreme - it's similar to the carnivore vs vegan extremes, as if there's no middle ground. In fact the middle ground is the sweet spot, and it's about fine-tuning that. If I started feeling better and thought I was getting better results with more intense workouts, I'd gradually pivot in that direction, no reason to make it all or nothing.
What do you guys think about his rep advice? Four seconds to reach the top of the rep, hold for two seconds, release for another four seconds, avoid momentum. I've been doing it and it's easier to hit failure and it feels like it would be better at inducing hypertrophy this way, especially if you never relax your muscles throughout the whole set. I only just started doing it a month or so ago and haven't seen any noticeable difference yet can anybody confirm if it's better to do it that way?
tempo is very important bodybuilding but you dont need to do exactly what mentzer says lol
tempo doesn't matter, time under tension doesn't matter
>tempo doesn't matter, time under tension doesn't matter
what matters is failure so yeah that is true lol.
Training to failure also doesn't matter.
Doing reps to near failure matters, but the number of reps is irrelevant within 8-20 so long as weight is adjusted to remain challenging.
Volume, that is the number of sets per muscle group per week (done to near failure, 8-20 reps) is all that matters. You want over 10 a week but probably less than 30.
Everything else is cope and it's just some boomer telling you it totally matters.
>8-20 reps
If i do 4 reps with the tempo mentzer says i can still reach muscular failure or near it so i would still grow. don't count reps count the stimulus.
>it's just some boomer telling you it totally matters.
>mentzer says
Yeah what I said
id rather reach muscular failure on multiple sets and not just one lmao
But why? After that first set, your body has already started working on repairing and growing the tissue you used. Why interrupt that process before it's done?
>do 10 sets in one day and have my body divert energy towards maintaining my strength for 10 sets
>do 10 sets over the course of the week and have my body divert energy towards more expedient recovery
How about the third option where I warm up and hype up to 1 (one) singular set that's harder that's harder than anything I've ever done and then I grow muscle to compensate? Yeah? Cool.
There is no biological reason for doing more than 1 set to failure per muscle per session. How many sessions you can recover from in a given span of time depends on the individual. Keeping the session volume static at 1 working set per exercise and adjusting the frequency of the workouts to suit my recovery needs has helped me tremendously in these past nine months.
With time under tension recommendations on the internet, you basically have to lie because no one does what you tell them to, even if they say they're doing a 3 second eccentric, it's 2 seconds 95% of the time. I do 2 seconds up & 2 seconds down (actual real seconds) & it eliminates momentum & is slower than the vast majority of people. If eliminating momentum is the goal, you don't really need to go any slower than that.
Your reps will slow down as you approach failure anyway. I don't bother with doing any sort of tempo. I would recommend going at whatever speed feels comfortable for your joints.
imagine the smell
human shit mixed with perfumed soap, sweat, and pussy slime? this what you brap homies get excited about?
gimme 12 minutes alone w faith ordway i'll have that lil pink c**t sloshing and farting fr
hold that b***h down and beat tf outta that back wall she gonna be crying tears of joy
I can't help but feel like Mentzer's responsible for some really shoddy "research"
yjk moment
I can't think of any other industry where the top dogs of it say the most asinine moronic shit that costs thousands of people's progress in it
It's actually insane. HIT is a meme for everyone who isn't blasting tons of gear and highly advanced
i agree that he is full of shit but me training 6 days a week rn i think its quite a lot of volume
is that homosexual that keep preaching metzer shit while looking like a fatass?
again but in english pedro
you are a fatass who looks like shit frick off with reading some homosexual from the 70s book who couldn't even win
He realized that you need to hit a muscle intensely, briefly, and infrequently. Basically, get in, go hard, get out, and recover as much as possible.
However, he became crazy from the meth as he got older, and took this logical idea to the extreme.
If you really want to a Mentzer style approach, without being totally moronic, you can do upper lower and have a rest day every other day. So UXLX repeating, basically. This results in a frequency of almost 2x a week, which is much better than 2x a month.
2x a month is perfect for a roid monster with 35ffmi whereas 2x a week is perfect for people who can't bench 2pl8 yet. His problem, and yours, is that he can't relate to people on different levels of physical competence.
>His problem, and yours, is that he can't relate to people on different levels of physical competence.
Mentzer did not have this problem. He laid out the principle very clearly in his audiotapes/books: As you get bigger and stronger, you deal more stress to your body with each set, which means you need more rest days to compensate.
This means that a beginner can tolerate a high volume routine, but will need to add rest (i.e. reduce volume) as they get stronger.
not a single c**t here has tried the program
and only 1 c**t on youtube has, (who did it for a month as a beginner lifter)
I'm not saying hes right, but holy frick the only way you can actually prove if he is right or not is to just try it verbatim for like 8-10 weeks?
What do you have to lose? Sub-optimal growth for 2 months and too much free time?
What do you have to gain? Potentially incredible results for minimal training time?
You can think about it all you want, but that's not achieving anything. If you want to know what the truth is, just do it, which it seems like noone is prepared to do.
Of course some of us have. And that's how we know it doesn't work. The science says it doesn't work and experience says it doesn't work. There's a reason why you don't see any pros espousing Mike mentzer's methods. Not even Dorian trained that way. He claimed high intensity but if you actually looked at his training videos he's still doing multiple sets close to failure before he gets to his supposed working set. And doing multiple exercises for body part. Volume wins every time.
I've tried it, and it seems fine so far. Took a little fiddling to get it where I liked it. The principles are good, and my execution ended up a little different from his suggestions, but not super far away.
>rep tempo 4s in each direction, 1s at each end (I use a metronome app to keep it consistent)
>one set per exercise to concentric failure, with forced reps until I can't maintain tempo on the way down (eccentric failure)
>rest-pause or do top set and backoff set if forcing reps is impractical (e.g. rest-pause for BTN press, two sets for deadlift)
>hit each muscle once per week, total of ~2.5 hours in the gym per week
>adding a couple of reps each week while cutting weight
>train for six weeks, then take a week off and repeat
It just works, I dunno dude. Can't say much about packing on muscle since I'm losing weight, but I don't see why it wouldn't work then too. I wish more people would try it. Like you said, they don't have much to lose. Worst case scenario, you learn something.
I'm doing it right now after I saw PD Mangan and Ted naiman talking about it. I'm only 2 months in though and just re-fricked my shoulder.
Two full body workouts a week, we'll see how it goes.
Current bench press record holder Julius Maddox trains upper body twice in 9 days.
Chad Aichs, very strong powerlifter, trained upper and lower once a week for years because of his recovery issues.
I find that 5 days in-between workouts work great for me.
However, I train fullbody, which is really easy to do when you aren't doing a lot of sets.
I do 6 sets of presses, 6 sets of upper back, 3 quads, 3 hams, 3 triceps, 3 biceps
I think he's right about "low" frequency but I would just do PPL MWF with more volume/assistance. That got me swole in high school and it still works. A real push day takes chest, front delts, and tris to failure with a wicked pump and burn. You need a week to recover from that.
This lines up with what I've heard Dorian say in some interviews as well. He said the most basic version of HIT is split your body into 3 workouts MWF and train to failure.
bulksisters..... we have been fricking lied to
It’s not that simple. It requires some calories to make the muscle, not just the protein that is spared.
Still, it’s only maybe 100-200 calories extra a day. Most people should be gaining 1 lb a month, if that.
Lol, who's that geezer? Arnold Schwarzenegger? Looks like his day must have been the 1970s. Lmao.
Roidtrannies are hilarious
>just read
shut the frick up nerd
Take the doggpill HITards
>Is that for real? What the frick?
with anabolic steroids you get to do whatever the frick you want.
Most roiders look like ordinary lifters. Many look dyel. Very few are anywhere near looking like a bodybuilder.
most of them are genetic dead ends. anyone with decent genetics on high doses who actually continues training any program no matter how moronic consistently for years will be top 0.001% physique.
People who look like shit on gear either stop training for the same reason they started taking roids (weak brain) or just have very shit genetics.
Any given type of program can work. You're reading about them because they've worked for so many people. But the program itself still has to be good. Shut the frick up with this genetic response cope. You do a program right you make gains. You don't and not even roids will help. That's all there is to it.
I literally said that people on gear can make gains with any program as long as they stick to it. This does not go for natties. There are people on considerable amounts of gear who go to the gym 4+ times a week and are still not obviously unnatty. That would be a genetic dead end.
>any given type of program can work
for people on gear, and novices like you.
>any program
Nope.
Programming applies to everyone. Roidcucks just have a higher ceiling for the amount of gains and strength they can get from doing random shit.
But at some point they plateau just like natties and need to rework their programming.
You can't progress on 5x5 to a 400kg deadlift.
>You can't progress on 5x5 to a 400kg deadlift.
the point here was physique training, not numbers/strength athletes. there's only ~10-15% difference between natty and geared strength ceilings. Completely different from natty vs geared bodybuilders (like mentzer and his training, the topic of this thread) who look like theyre a different species. Advanced training cycles are simply not neccesary for physique training when you are on gear, conditioning and diet + training adherence are. ifbb Black folk dont even know what they will be doing 4 months from now, someone like john haack has his next 2 years planned out. Will a roidgay do better when he puts thought into his programming? of course, but it is absolutely not necessary. A natty will stop making gains entirely on a novice program within a year, but someone on lots of gear will do the same bicep curls and lateral raises and continue to blow up along with their dosage.
>there's only ~10-15% difference between natty and geared strength ceilings
lol
delusional beyond repair
at the elite level this is true, good to know you're a novice spouting shit though.
looking in the mirror and noticing that your chest is lagging compared to your traps isnt advanced training you spastic
>at the elite level
At the elite level everyone is roiding, you literal manchild.
>you're a novice
Cope, post body.
>looking in the mirror and noticing that your chest is lagging compared to your traps isnt advanced training you spastic
So you admit you have no idea about programming and you're blaming plateauing on a lmao2pl8 bench for 3 years on genetics/lack of roids/god.
15% is the difference between local meet and world record you moron
>local meet
Top 3 - 5 competitors at any local competition are roided. Even college competitions are full of roidgays.
Try again.
I never said or implied anything to the contrary, I am pointing out that 10-15% sounds small but is actually massive. obviously athletes cheat all the time especially in pl, still you can compare untested federations vs tested and see how narrow the gap is. even if every tested athlete is still on gear, they cannot be taking 4/5 of compounds they would want that linger forever and are incredibly easy to detect or take something as basic as test near the optimal dose to set records.
What do you imagine steroids do for a genetic freak 70kg lifetime athlete vs him being natty when they have an identical body composition and skill? The primary difference in strength between people who are natty and those who are not is the difference in muscle mass which is accounted for in weight classes at the elite level, hence their strength being similar. a 70kg powerlifter on gear cant have more muscle than a 70kg elite natty powerlifter. they are both already capped at their weightclass, no matter how much gear they take. Taking deca and tren doesnt allow you to pack 80kg of muscle in a 70kg weightclass. What remains is shit like halotestin to give you an edge and peptides for recovery.
>top 3-5 are roided
probably, but they are also probably not particularly genetically blessed for strength. At local meets natties can win, its just that those guys were benching 315 when they were 16, and you were not.
tl;dr
The point was
>10-15% difference between natty and roided strength
Not
>10-15% difference between amateur roided and elite roided strength
its fine you can give up on benching more than 315 if you want to
>make an entire paragraph that's not on-point
>"dude that was not the point, the point was XYZ"
>"uhmmm.... b-b-b-but bench"
Okay anon, I accept your concession.
I'm stronger than you btw.
I see you have trouble reading.
What do you imagine the major advantage is between an elite natty 70kg powerlifter, and the same guy on gear?
What the frick are you even talking about lmao
In
the statement was
>there's only ~10-15% difference between natty and geared strength ceilings
Which is NOT true.
the answer is 10-15%. thanks for playing.
Can you explain my position back to me? I can only assume you just dont understand.
I think your point is that for a given athlete with elite genetics at the peak of their sport and performance, adding steroids will increase their results much more than 15%. I am asking you how much stronger you think somebody at the cap of their weightclass with as much muscle mass as the weightclass will allow will be when they now start taking steroids, in the same weightclass.
thats true, but many of the compounds that are useful in strength sports are very difficult to hide. Surely test helps, but you cannot be blasting tren like you would in an untested league. maybe 15% is off, but I get the impression this anon (and most others) think its closer to 50%.
It should be obvious that the difference between peak natty and gear will not be 600lb vs 900lb squat, that is absurd. I guess it comes from them not understanding how insane a 10-15% numbers difference is at that level.
>adding steroids will increase their results much more than 15%
Yes.
>how much stronger
20 - 40%
>inb4 some bullshit or cherrypicked example
Elite """"natties"""" are roiding, especially in strength sports.
>40%
so if this guy was natty he would only squat 165? he would squat what I squatted 1 year in at 85kg?
this is your take?
>235 to 165
And what is your point? You're acting like a woman, kek.
The difference is 40%. You are saying steroids bring you from low talent gymbro to world record holder. You are low iq. You dont lift.
>low talent gymbro
Newsflash: 99.9% of natties have garbage lifts, even if they're specializing.
>You dont lift
Sounds like cope, lil guy.
you literally dont lift lol
>steroids bring you from medium strength guy at local gym to world record hodler
lol!
165 to 235 squat!
lol!
>165 to 235 squat
Which is exactly how it turned out for the guy that roided to get that 235 squat lol.
So what's your point?
that I am apparantly the strongest natty alive since I rep peak natty squats
Yeah but you're fat, so it's expected
6'1 185 455/325/465
6'4 272 700/500/800
post body
And to drive this
point even further, here's Chad Penson's lifts for 90kg:
>squat 400kg (881lbs)
>bench press 232kg (513lbs)
>deadlift 365kg (804lbs)
>total 997kg (2199lbs)
That's almost double, aka 100% more than you do.
he works more than double as hard and is over twice as talented as myself. when does the conversation get back to steroids and HIT?
I brought up the record because the absurd 40% number means he would be crushed by gym casuals
>the ones that can
so what the frick is your point? what do you actually disagree with?? LOTS OF THEM CHEAT. I KNOW.
peak natty vs peak gear strength in the same weightclass doesnt vary more than 20%, I think closer to 15%. ignoring any post that does not directly relate to this. stay on topic Black folk.
If you stand behind the 40% number you believe a 235 geared record holder would only squat 165 natty and thus your opinion is null and void.
>he works more than double as hard
The discussion is about peak natty vs peak gear.
Your feelings don't matter.
Take 2nd - 5th place and you get a similar result. The strength ceiling on sterons is at around half if not more of your strength added, as the other anon said.
Dunno what you're crying about tbqh senpai.
>The discussion is about peak natty vs peak gear.
then why the frick are you comparing me to a world record holder? The only reason I ever compared my numbers to anyone elses is because anon suggested that 165 squat at 70kg is peak natty which is completely absurd as that would make an intermediate a world record holder. stopped reading. You will never leave novice
>why the frick are you comparing me to a world record holder?
You're 85kg, Chad Penson is competing at 90kg.
If you want to, you can try finding a 90kg natty competitor.
Good luck. Until then, you're wrong.
off topic
>A x2.5 bw squat is pretty much spot on for most people.
yes probably lower
>IST warped your mind with your expectations.
I dont expect anyone here to even lift
>Don't have a nice day when you find yourself lifting roughly the same numbers 5 years from now.
it is what it is, fortunately I wont expect steroids to take my future 405 bench to 600
>off topic
You were just crying for like 20+ responses about
>muh steroids don't make you more than 20% stronger
even though you got PROVEN wrong and btfo.
Sounds like cope from a dyel.
you didnt prove or lift anything
Natty 405 is real and doesn't require meme programming just lots of hard 12 rep sets once a week
natty 405 is obviously real but almost nobody will hit it doing sets of 12. you need to be pretty deliberate at that point which sets of 12 are not.
>"n-n-no it can't be more than 20%"
>get shown that it's more than 20%
>"NUH UH"
Just admit you got btfo.
>a 235 geared record holder would only squat 165 natty
For a 69kg dude this is spot on though, the frick are you crying about?
>For a 69kg dude this is spot on though
null and void, try lifting you weak homosexual. goodbye.
>get btfo so hard that you get mindbroken
Keep your tone down with your 400lbs deadlift when talking to me, b***h.
A x2.5 bw squat is pretty much spot on for most people. IST warped your mind with your expectations. Don't have a nice day when you find yourself lifting roughly the same numbers 5 years from now.
I've heard stories about olympic weightlifters taking so many pills they couldn't even digest them all, and they get tested much more often than powerlifters in any fed.
Here's a talk about doping in OL:
Most pills are legal supplements.
Watch the video. They taking 180 pills of Dianabol a week. The guy put 20kgs to his C&J in 2 months.
>but many of the compounds that are useful in strength sports are very difficult to hide
Baby's first exposition to corruption in sports.
>you cannot be blasting tren like you would in an untested league
Pic rel.
>its closer to 50%
I'd say 30%+
I am well aware of how many of them cheat, but they are limited in which ways they get to cheat.
>pic rel
yeah dude you can totally tell they are using tren specifically
>they are limited in which ways they get to cheat
Black person, THEY LITERALLY PAY EVERYONE OFF AND THEY PUT THEIR FRIEND'S PISS INTO A TUBE.
>tren specifically
Le you don't ackshually know their cycle uhhhh
Yeah frick off, this dude is running roids that could kill a horse
post body and lifts troon
hystrionic woman moment, lifting might stabilise you a little, try it some time.
>cry about natty lifts being far behind roided lifts through half the thread
>"NUH UH IT CAN'T BE WAH"
>call other women
kek
I just know you have a tiny bench and a shit body
>>cry about natty lifts being far behind roided lifts through half the thread
Im saying theyre not that far behind lol I rep what you think is peak natty squat haha
Post body copelord
where's the cope? natties can get strong! maybe you could too if you lifted
>b-b-but I can be strong t-too
Okay post body then big boy
>asks for body instead of lifts
Ive been told Im suckable too many times on this board, homosexual trickster
you can probably find someone pretending to be me in cbt rn
I have a 275kg squat and 225kg bench. I do the twink world record squat for reps.
lots of world record holders in this thread, who knew peak natties have novice lifts??
I pin tren.
no record for you
Revazi is pinning GRAMS of shit, there's no test under the sun that would allow him to somehow go off cycle for a week or two to fake the results.
why do you keep going to different sports? originally there was talk about how effective gear is for adding mass for bodybuilding (very), then you brought up strength numbers and now you need me to give a frick about how many steroids a wrestler is taking? what is your point? Yeah Im sure this guy is juiced to the gills
>post body
>not, post bench, post squat, post diddly
say no to homosexuality
>cheating is limited
>here's an athlete on grams of gear on the most tested event in the world
>but it doesn't count
Huh?
different countries have wildly varying complicity in enabling doping. Do you believe olympic athletes run any cycle they want?
>varying complicity in enabling doping
So?
>any cycle they want?
The ones that can - yes.
>elite
>natty
>powerlifter
Such as?
>The point was
>10-15% difference between natty and roided strength
I've heard this argument but I think it's very naive. AFAIK it was presented by Greg Nuckols and he compared records in natty vs untested federations. The issue, as I see it, is that roiders are the ones pushing records in both feds. In untested you can pretty much assume that every records holder uses roids and but the same is likely true in natty feds because cheaters have a huge advantage and it only takes one to break a record.
Whether it's naive or not is besides the point, it's what the other anon thinks separates a natty from a roidtroon kek, which is beyond moronic.
>Advanced training cycles are simply not neccessary for physique training when you are on gear
You'll look like shit on gear if you don't program specifically for building a physique, stop this moronic shit.
i hate that i ever came across even thirty seconds of what this guy has said. he has ruined my brain. everytime i lift now or am on program, i always feel like im training too much. He is now the little voice in my head telling me to just drop the weights and leave the gym. frick this c**t.
I train one day one on, one day off. I do like 3 sets until failure with warm ups, and 0 control of the eccentric because that's what causes the actual muscle damage (not good according to the contrasting philosophies I've been influenced by).
I'm only a year into training but muscle/size mog the frick out of all the f4gs in my casual gym, don't know how long they've been training for doe. I assume longer than I have.
I'm 6'3 190lb 10% bodyfat. I originally made huge gains in my first 3 months of training with normie volume style training 5 sets medium intensity etc, then the following 6 months I stagnated hard. The last 3 mo of mentzer-style training match my first 3mo of newbie-gains, with progress every session and seeing body growing in the mirror week-by-week.
ayy someone else who has actually tried his style. I started doing Yates' split but with more rest in between. About 9-12 days in between each body part. Lifts go up every single session. I doubt volume cucks can say that
world record holders are much stronger than intermediate lifter, shocking.
do you agree that chad penson wouldve squatted 285 if he was natty?
>much stronger
Irrelevant. Shouldn't have brought up the world record for 69kg division then.
>wouldve squatted 285
Maybe, idk. He squats double what you do.
>Can anybody provide criticism of this?
He didnt build his muscle doing it. Might want to do what he did to actually build his muscles, not do what he wrote to make some money.
>dude 100 years ago before science was invented didn't know how to train optimally, but still got gains because he trained hard and used steroids
what a fricking shocker
Never take advice from a moronic roider.