>muh 2 sets
>muh to failure
>muh lots of rest between workouts
Is this guy a meme or based?
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>muh 2 sets. >muh to failure. >muh lots of rest between workouts
>muh 2 sets
>muh to failure
>muh lots of rest between workouts
Is this guy a meme or based?
It's All Fucked Shirt $22.14 |
|
It's All Fucked Shirt $22.14 |
You've got to experiment and find out for yourself how much volume you need. It might be one set, it might be two, it might be three, etc. all I know is I'd rather train with intensity like Mike and do one set than train with pussy intensity and do three sets all to achieve the same thing
whats the point of doing 4 sets of 10 reps if none of those came close to muscle failure? I believe OP is trans btw if that matters
Why can't you do high volume lifts to muscle failure? It doesn't have to be either or. I personally do 5 sets of 7-10 reps to failure and see a lot of progress from it.
This has also been my experience. As long as you're sleeping well and eating enough, volume training with each set to failure is optimal.
because you could have used heavier weight for 3 sets of 7-10 reps and saved plenty of time and achieved same result. and generally we can agree that you make more gains the heavier weight you can use. if a guy does db incline with 20kg 3x8 or db incline with 40kg 3x8, the guy who can use heavier weight for hypertrophy set, will be bigger and stronger. if you do 5 sets you are either sandbagging or just using less weight for worse results actually, not just same but worse. you can reach failure playing video games and curling 1kg dumbbell for gorillion reps. why dont you do that? failure is pretty bad standard.
and now you could argue well why do 3 sets then why not 2 or 1? Well actually 2 is pretty legit too. The problem with one is that it becomes slightly more gimmicky and difficult to load up right amount of weight and be able to still do quality reps and go to failure within one set. 2 is better and 3 pretty much guarantees it.
>you do 5 sets you are either sandbagging or just using less weight for worse results actually
What? You don't decrease the load for the first set, you go to failure. Doing 5 sets to failure is exactly the same as doing 1 set to failure except you keep going afterwards. The same weight and intensity is used.
You might be moronic.
post body i know you won't tho every metzBlack person is a dysgenic brownoid who hase less than 2 years of lifting exp
Incredibly BASED. Intensity is the key to growth. If you are training with a high enough level of intensity, you will only need one properly performed set to failure to maximize your gains.
You should train like a moronic animal for at least a few sessions when you're new because it'll teach you how to actually get close to failure. I feel like Mentzer preys on pussies who don't actually train hard. Basically his philosophy is built upon the idea that 1 or 2 days of proper training will do more for someone than 5 or 6 days of mediocre wheel spinning. I don't see why you would go all in on one part of the formula though. The person who trains regularly and with high intensity will make better gains than the person who just lifts once a week at high intensity. You don't even have to go crazy every set either. You realistically only need to take one set to absolute failure. You're either a dyel or lying out your ass if you tell me just one set of an exercise feels better than 3 or 4. Chasing the pump is half the fun in bodybuilding. If you're training just to get a good body and don't enjoy the process then you'll never truly make it. Maybe you'll develop a good body for a bit, but you'll throw it all away because you don't actually like lifting
>I feel like Mentzer preys on pussies who don't actually train hard
It's what he trained his clients with who wanted to get big. It's also what Dorian did. For people not taking steroids, Dorian recommends that they cut the volume in half on his routine since he was training twice a week. You have to train extremely hard on HIT and it takes a lot of willpower, especially compared to many volume routines. The entire concept is compressing all that effort into a relatively short time period instead of diffusing over a prolonged period.
>I don't see why you would go all in on one part of the formula though
HIT attempts to optimize the formula by increasing intensity so that less volume is required.
>You realistically only need to take one set to absolute failure.
That set is the one that makes you grow and hence the only one you need. The other sets preceding it are essentially just extended warmups.
>You're either a dyel or lying out your ass if you tell me just one set of an exercise feels better than 3 or 4. Chasing the pump is half the fun in bodybuilding
Bodybuilding is about providing stimulus to grow the muscles. The pump and any sensations related to the pump are unnecessary for growth. If you want a pump, you can simply train with a higher rep range which will get you a huge pump.
>don't enjoy the process
You don't go to the dentist because you enjoy getting your teeth cleaned. You go to the dentist to make sure your teeth have no problems and get problems addressed if you have any. Likewise, your checkups are infrequent but thorough since that is the what is minimum necessary to ensure good dental heath. The only thing you have to enjoy is having good dental health. Likewise, you exercise for the results; improved fitness, increases in musculature, and increases in strength.
Nta but I absolutely go to the gym because I like it and it’s fun, you have no gains and it shows. Conflating working out with going to the dentist is absolutely wild.
>It's what he trained his clients with who wanted to get big
Who were his clients though? Roiders? Dyels who never obtained their newb gains because they never actually trained properly (this is real btw, you will not experience newb gains until you begin training properly)? Like I did in my post, Mentzer teaches people how to train properly even if it's only for 2 days a week. The reason Yates tells people to train with half his volume is because he's on roids like you said, but also he doesn't frick around with a single set. As a natty training like Yates will rape your CNS in less than 3 sessions. Though, I'm not exactly familiar with what his routines consisted of exactly. Ive seen Yates training and train similarly, though I'm under the impression that he trains multiple sets to absolute failure with the help of his training partner based off videos I've seen. And I hard disagree that HIT takes more willpower. Youre right that your first sets are somewhat like warm ups, but they should still be fatigue inducing.
>HIT attempts to optimize the formula by increasing intensity so that less volume is required.
I'm yet to find evidence that suggests short bursts of total exertion are superior to higher volume with adequate intensity. Like I said, Mentzer is great for showing people what's possible in terms of pushing your limits, but we also can't disregard the importance of other aspects of training which HIT neglects, specifically progressive overload. Yes, you still progressively overload on HIT, but it is common knowledge among strength athletes that strength is developed faster if you train with more frequency. Any powerlifter will tell you that if youre no longer sore before you lift again, then youre leaving strength gains on the table. We also know that a strong muscle is a big muscle, given that the individual is training properly in order to induce muscle stimulus. Therefore we know training to failure is about more than fatigue, but strength too
>That set is the one that makes you grow and hence the only one you need. The other sets preceding it are essentially just extended warmups.
I agree, though you cannot physically exert yourself completely if you just do one set back to back to complete failure even if the exercises are unrelated. Don't believe me? Try taking a set of hack squats (or any exercise for that matter) to failure then try doing curls. If you train properly then you'll drop those dumbbells before you can even get close to failure. Now apply this to typical routines that will have you go from something like lat pull down to cable rows. Because similar muscles are involved I'd argue it's better to have some buffer sets in order to actually regain your composure while not losing the warmness (for lack of better term).
>The pump and any sensations related to the pump are unnecessary for growth
I agree. A pump is not indicative of muscle growth, but it is indicative of muscle stimulus. Achieving failure and getting a pump is as good as it gets, though some people take chasing the pump too far and sacrifice gains in the process.
>Whether or not you stick to training is simply discipline.
It does not take discipline to do something you enjoy. It takes discipline to cut an addiction because you enjoy the dopamine hit, but if you fall in love with aspects of sober life then you'll have no problem abstaining. Everyone should pursue fitness by partaking in activities that they enjoy. Though we disagree on some aspects of training, if HIT is your jam then go for it. Now in terms of bodybuilding? I'd still argue HIT is suboptimal for the reasons I've stated. But there is nothing more suboptimal than not training at all.
>but it is indicative of muscle stimulus
A pump is a form of inflammation. Inflammation is your body's reaction to damage. Getting stimulus does not require very much damage. Conversely, causing lots of damage doesn't necessarily mean you've stimulated growth. The two are independent.
Training to failure will damage your muscles way more than a normal set of 8
Sets of 8 with what? I'll take a guess and say you're thinking 10RM, leaving two in the tank. How many of those normal sets of 8 do you have to do to get the same benefit? A lot more than one, that's for sure.
Mike Mentzer tried to tell Dorian he was doing it wrong and Dorian Yates told Mike to frick off.
meltzer probably just didnt want him to become a mass monster, now we know you just double mikes routine to leave humanity behind
Mentzergays never post body, so the evidence speaks for itself - HIT is a meme and Mentzer was a bitter loser.
>but you'll throw it all away because you don't actually like lifting
Whether or not you stick to training is simply discipline. Not whether or not you like lifting. If it's motivation you need, the fact that you get increased fitness and strength from training should be more than enough for lifting. A person can enjoy the results of something and not enjoy the methods necessary to get the results yet continue to use those methods because they enjoy keeping the results of that training. The masters of every craft practice many boring basic things within their craft in spite of them being boring because it is required to be a master.
You can do what you like. However, the excess time you spend in the gym would be simply better spent elsewhere than the gym. Perhaps if you like moving around a lot, you can try an amateur sports league.
>Conflating
You should learn what the words you use actually mean and how to properly use them before attempting to use them. Perhaps you should return to grade school so that you can learn to no longer make such errors.
>A person can enjoy the results of something and not enjoy the methods necessary to get the results yet continue to use those methods because they enjoy keeping the results of that training.
Despite what I just said, I do agree with this somewhat. However, you should not have your routine consist entirely or mostly of unenjoyable activities, especially as a dyel. If HIT requires loads of discipline but gives you the results that you're happy with then go for it, but realistically the end result will be the same. What really matters is whether you can get to the finish line. But that's also the thing with bodybuilding. Even at the finish line you'll have to keep going just to stay at the peak. So what then? Surely you won't advocate for HIT at that point
>you'll throw it all away because you don't actually like lifting
>I absolutely go to the gym because I like it and it’s fun, you have no gains and it shows
Anecdotal, but my love for lifting is what kept me small for so long. Loved, as in: I used to get up at 4:30 every day to do full body, about 2hr per session. I only lost progress doing this.
Hitting a muscle too frequently will make it weaker.
he could've been much larger if he wasn't that lazy.
he was comically smaller than arnold on stage.
He was heavier than Arnold. Stop being easily propagandized. Also, your bb sense is shit so just stick to being a curlbro.
Maybe. I'm trying 1 set to failure every day for a month. See how it goes. It's only 7 sets a week but i don't have to worry about saving energy for the next set and not not doing enough to need a rest day. I do other physical pursuits to substitute vol and cardio so i wouldn't make this your be all and done with it program. Make a core list and when you get to 16 reps or so add more weight, can be done in 20 mins and get on with your day. If you want to frick around with other stuff targeting certain body parts with accessories make some time for that as long as you can still workout the next day. Rest days are stupid. Been strong but tired isn't worth it unless thats your job
Mentzer is the proof why brosplits is the best program for natties and roiders, you probably isn't resting enough to the point of being able to train it 2x a week, even when you train it 1x a week you are still stimulating it thru other exercises, like chest exercises hitting ur shoulders or even RDLs on leg days giving you a small forearm/bicep pump
Why do people even ask? He obviously was using PEDs, one set one with that kind of help (especially at his level of intensity) will absolutely get results. For natties? Probably need a bit more than that. But HIIT and rest is good in any case.
Just an aside for anyone lacking reading comprehension, I'm not advocating for roid usage in this post.
I'm fairly sure your IQ is below 90 and you're a dyel
Good argument, Black person.
I'm replying to OP, not anyone in the thread.
>comes into thread
>has absolutely no idea what people are even discussing
>tells them they're wrong
>leaves
>HIT
HIT comes from Arthur Jones not Mike Mentzer. Arthur Jones is cool for having invented new exercise equipment (he founded Nautilus) but he claims that he observed a gorilla, saw how it trained, and tried to emulate it, which sounds like something from a cheesy kung fu movie. HIT is the fake martial arts of training methods, you may as well learn systema while you're at it. I get why it appeals to people, it's very compelling philosophically, but it's not rooted in reality. And just so you know, 1980 was a sham but Mentzer wasn't robbed, he tied for fifth.
>Did his workout plan while on cocaine and 3 hours a sleep
Take a guess
I can't even tell if you're asking as part of the meme or not. of course it's bullshit.
Training to failure everytime is moronic, imagine going to failure on rdls or squats or leg press everytime. Enjoy breaking your fricking back because mike told you so.
I think the point is more you have to have the mentality of it, if you never attempt to train to failure you wont know what it feels like. I agree you should only train to actual failure on lightweight exercises or like some cable stuff tho, because yeah failing a squat or deadlift can be disastrous and your form is going to fall apart several reps before you achieve actual muscle failure there anyways.
He literally says that his definition of failure is when form becomes compromised.
What does training to failure mean? Because like said so going to failure on a squat or similar is suicide waiting to happen
well he looks like that so everyone crying about it is just coping and seething.
So do other bodybuilders and they dont do his braindead routine
yeah they work ten times harder to look about the same, obviously meltzer is the braindead one.
He is the dead one so
They don't, the grainy-dense muscle is unique to Dorian, Mentzer and maybe Ronnie. Even Kevin Levrone looked somewhat soft next to king Dorian.
imagine, IMAGINE putting mentzer in the same category as Dorian or fricking Coleman, those two are leagues above him
>trained so hard he died at 49
Fitards only need to check his dier to realize he was dumb as bricks.
Guy ate like 50g of protein a day, if he didnt have elite genetics and didnt roid hed look like fricking shit lmao
50g is enough if you're not a fat frick
3 days ago I did 1 set of bodyweight dips to absolute failure and I'm still feeling it
the problem is that his critics can't refute him without engaging in sloppy thinking and hand-waving.
complete meme. He never trained that way. it was just to shill Arthur Jones' machines.
Once i started doing 2off days in a row per week + every 5th week completeely off, i gained like 5kg muscle mass faster than i previously gained 15 muscle and fat.
Rest is good. Experiment.
Here's my one obligatory post for mentzer threads, to give a summary to new people.
1) In order for any stressor to elicit an adaptation in your body, a certain intensity threshold must be exceeded. (Mentzer's recommendation was to drive up intensity as high as possible just as an insurance against wasting time)
2) As you get bigger and stronger, the amount of stress you inflict on your body goes up. Therefore, you must either a) increase rest days in your schedule or b) reduce the number of working sets in your workouts.
The entirety of HIT is summarized by these two biological laws. Best wishes, all.
The problem is that he pushed these principles to moronic lengths.
See this https://youtube.com/shorts/9Z8zXu4_7HQ?si=lw9nqTaSoMlxp_Py
>50lbs of muscles in 9 weeks, training 20 minutes every 7 days.
That means 9 workouts, that means 3 hours of training supposedly created a stimulus strong enough to gain 50 pounds in 9 weeks
Everyone believing that is moronic, even with steroids that’s impossible.
By the way even training with high intensity, higher volume still correlates with gains, see
?si=4zlzZHO3HG6j-E3y
52 sets per week, close to failure, for a single muscle group, still created more gains, no overtraining
>52 sets a week
yeah right lmao, frick that
>50lbs of muscles in 9 weeks, training 20 minutes every 7 days.
>That means 9 workouts, that means 3 hours of training supposedly created a stimulus strong enough to gain 50 pounds in 9 weeks
This is not what he states in the recording. He states it was 50lbs "mostly of muscle" which means somewhere between 26 to 50lbs of muscle and between 24 to 0lbs of fat. This is doable with steroids.
>52 sets per week, close to failure, for a single muscle group, still created more gains, no overtraining
If you can recover from 52 sets per week, and grow, then great. By all means, do so. The question becomes: When you can make no more progress and hit a plateau, what do you do? Assuming your intensity is already high enough to stimulate growth, you must follow point 2 above.
I’m not saying 52 sets a week is what you should do, i’m saying it shows that the higher end of the volume/hypertrophy curve is much higher than previously thought.
I know that and i also know one study isn’t scientific evidence, but it shows a tendency that’s totally opposed to what Mentzer preached.
Taking an average, of a brief snapshot in time, of a small group of participants with barely any experience tells you nothing about the human body.
And you’re sharing a screenshot of a snake oil salesman spouting nonsense without a link to the studies he’s referencing.
Spoiler : they don’t exist, he pulled it out of his ass to sell his shit
>And you’re sharing a screenshot of a snake oil salesman spouting nonsense without a link to the studies he’s referencing.
>Spoiler : they don’t exist, he pulled it out of his ass to sell his shit
You have completely missed the point.
>still sharing shit from arthurjonesexercise.com
You’re arguing that the earth is flat while sharing flat earth "studies"
Post body
I haven't shown any studies. I have shown two anecdotes as examples for why you should not trust, as I stated earlier, "an average, of a brief snapshot in time, of a small group of participants".
How is your individual training journey going? Are you making progress? What's your routine like?
>this is doable with steroids
Not with 20 minutes of training per week lmao
https://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/abstract/9900/effects_of_different_weekly_set_progressions_on.380.aspx
Here's the study that Israetel and Wolf are discussing.
I would recommend you read at least the synopsis that isn't behind their paywall. The sample size is tiny, the methodology is not applicable to you, and the researchers are not even confident in their own conclusions.
>"While our findings indicate a possible small benefit for higher volume conditions regarding hypertrophic adaptations in this population, the limited certainty of our findings warrants caution."
Also, how many of the subjects were drug-users or beginners? Those two groups bias towards higher volumes.
Arnold unironically deserved the W in 1980
Frick this methhead homosexual and all the newbie gains morons that worship him
All bodybuilders are moronic, otherwise they wouldn't be bodybuilders.
volume gymcels
they still think high volume is the answer
6 days a week gymcels are worse than crack addicts
>no bullshit approach to training, go hard and quick
>adequate rest meaning you won't burn out easily
>low frequency meaning you won't have to sacrifice a lot of time
ultra based and the only people that will actively look to fight that are those who feel their gym lifestyle might be compromised by this approach
training regularly takes a lot of time and you'd have to be a moron to argue with that
>commuting
>warming up
>training
>showering
>commuting again
>getting some time to unwind
only a fricking supplement peddler or a dyel novice freshly obsessed with a gym wouldn't pick an interest in an option to compress it
the argument about PEDs is ridiculous, bc low volume trainings are primarily aimed at natties who have obviously an impeded recovery abilities if you compare them to juicers
The most interesting thing in these threads is how aggressively some people react to the Mentzer's ideas without ever trying or even considering them. This is how older people behave when you present them some non-offensive though non-obvious innovation. Same with people who are into religion when they find out about a church that splits off from their common beliefs. A common lifter "prays" to the god of gains by doing standard volume training with a faint idea (at best) of how it works, is basically just a mindless ritual that he was taught and he stands by it, because he's used to it and never thought of any other way.
I personally didn't jump into any of the cookie cutter Mentzer's training, I just got inspired by the logic and science behind it, cut my frequency to 2 trainings a week, replaced multiple set with rest pauses / drop sets + technical failure and holy shit, that was probably the best training decision I've ever made. Gains are there, overuse nagging injuries fricked off, I'm less beat and have more time. I literally couldn't justify adding another session into that mix, that would be most likely just a waste of time and energy.
If you follow his workout routine as a natty, you will look like shit. I've yet to see a natty copy his routine and look even one tenth as good as him.
Never listen to advice from roidtrannies
Notice how the Mentzer worship on social media and israelitetube started shortly after Arnold turned into a good goy with his frick your freedom spiel? Not a coincidence i can assure you.
As for Mentzer himself his methods are a meme.
The truth is...
You will have to try it for yourself and see what works for you. Some respond better to high volume, some to low volume.
What's up repentzer bros, question:
Been on his consolidation program for about 6 months because I was stalling and it's super easy to just workout 25 minutes each workout doing compounds. Currently stalling on palm in lat pulldowns at 210 for about 6-7, been this way for months.
Should I deload to 180 and work back up or could I have a muscle imbalance? FWIW I'm doing IF+carnivore to slowly recomp but I'm not drinking alcohol and eating at least 150-190g protein/day and 220g on workout days.
Second: should I get off consolidation and go onto his "naturals" program, it seems to be about 4 isolation exercises per workout across 4 workouts but I don't know if I can be assed to bother when my dips/squat/diddlies are going up fairly reliably just on the consolidation program.